"Read The Manual" replies
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I remember when I first started with Falcon Allied Force. I spent the weekend pissed off at how it was two days and I still couldn’t start the damn jet. I went to Frugal’s world and that only made me more confused :D.
I was annoyed that there wasn’t some thread or website with all the answers to my questions and wondered why the Lead Pursuit website FAQ didn’t have more answers. But not long after I realized all the answers were there in the 700+ page manual. I just didn’t want to invest the time reading it. I wanted the answers now so I could blow stuff up. I bitched and moaned but I wanted to know how to fly the sim so I went through the entire manual and did the training TEs and slowly figured it out. When my learning slowed down and I wanted to learn more I joined a VFW.
I think a lot of new Falcon flyers go through that phase where they see a cool video and want to download the sim and start doing what they saw in the video right away. And in most cases with other video games you can do that. But Falcon isn’t one of those video games. Even if there was a tutorial for every aspect of the sim, it would still take a lot of time and work to master (I’m eight years in and still working on it lol). As a result, I think it attracts a certain crowd that values people who are willing to invest the same time that they did to learn it. That is part of where I think the RTFM comes from.
However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there who are willing to help. Even before 4.33’s much improved in depth manuals, if you spend some time looking, you will see youtube tutorial videos (i.e. what Krouse did with 4.32) or countless others on youtube showing you step-by-step how to do almost everything you can think of. You don’t even have to join a VFW. There is Falcon Online or other public servers with knowledgeable people willing to help too. So I disagree that the information isn’t out there or that it is hidden somewhere. Go on youtube and type in what you are looking for.
Also, there are tons of people here who are willing to help. But it’s not fair to be upset at them for expecting you to do a little work yourself. If you truly can’t find the answer to your question that is one thing, but if you haven’t even taken the time to look, don’t be surprised when someone says RTFM.
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Nor is it commonly conferred via forums. Not to mention that more than a few persons asking for quick advice have no desire in being mentored.
Thus the many posts by others in this thread stating that a proper mentorship can be acquired via the many virtual wings available. Also, if you note the example set by the BMS devs, they often answer the novice’s question as well as direct them to the manual and page number where they can explore the answer themselves. The “teach the man to fish” aphorism also explored in this thread.
I would be interested in hearing what your superiors’ reactions were when you told them you did not have the time to read the manual before arriving at class.
See above regarding Dev’s answers.
No, it merely means that they paid $2.50 for an outdated sim and paid $0.00 for an add on that increases their initial investment many times over.
Pumpyhead,
You live up to the name……well.Be ye advised that when I did show up, my IPs did not simply say ‘RTFM, maggot’. I was confronted with stair step training, a logical way to get from point A to B and beyond. That’s how it works in the real world.
I do not know exactly what abject lack of esteem has led to supporting the clubbing of baby seals for no other reason than ‘you can’, nor do I care. What I do know is that it’s truly your problem, not mine.
I believe you.
You are a jerk.
Congrats ?Dismissed.
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I remember when I first started with Falcon Allied Force. I spent the weekend pissed off at how it was two days and I still couldn’t start the damn jet. I went to Frugal’s world and that only made me more confused :D.
I was annoyed that there wasn’t some thread or website with all the answers to my questions and wondered why the Lead Pursuit website FAQ didn’t have more answers. But not long after I realized all the answers were there in the 700+ page manual. I just didn’t want to invest the time reading it. I wanted the answers now so I could blow stuff up. I bitched and moaned but I wanted to know how to fly the sim so I went through the entire manual and did the training TEs and slowly figured it out. When my learning slowed down and I wanted to learn more I joined a VFW.
I think a lot of new Falcon flyers go through that phase where they see a cool video and want to download the sim and start doing what they saw in the video right away. And in most cases with other video games you can do that. But Falcon isn’t one of those video games. Even if there was a tutorial for every aspect of the sim, it would still take a lot of time and work to master (I’m eight years in and still working on it lol). As a result, I think it attracts a certain crowd that values people who are willing to invest the same time that they did to learn it. That is part of where I think the RTFM comes from.
However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there who are willing to help. Even before 4.33’s much improved in depth manuals, if you spend some time looking, you will see youtube tutorial videos (i.e. what Krouse did with 4.32) or countless others on youtube showing you step-by-step how to do almost everything you can think of. You don’t even have to join a VFW. There is Falcon Online or other public servers with knowledgeable people willing to help too. So I disagree that the information isn’t out there or that it is hidden somewhere. Go on youtube and type in what you are looking for.
Also, there are tons of people here who are willing to help. But it’s not fair to be upset at them for expecting you to do a little work yourself. If you truly can’t find the answer to your question that is one thing, but if you haven’t even taken the time to look, don’t be surprised when someone says RTFM.
Duly noted.
Thanks for the resources. -
This is not military for the enough attitude to be accepted.
In military either you sack it up or you quit in disgrace.Here is free world.
Now the coin has 3 sides, not two.
Ppl asking questions here might very well know the reading and what is needed to learn it, but we all forger something fundamental here. He or she hasn’t decided yet, is still in the research mod. Do you think he would go through the normal way? Would you? And after xx months oops bms sacks back time… I don’t think so guys.The subject - thread long gone to utopia land…
Suggestions guys to make the path easier.
If we want to help both sides.We took the turn of going towards personal I believe.
sent from my Xperia Z3 compact via TapaTalk
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Some ppl spent hundreds or thousand, or several thousands of hours : developing the sim, creating 3D models, creating manuals, supporting a forum, giving their 15+ years of Falcon4 experience (everything for free of course) … and some other ppl calls them “jerk”.
This is the another side of the beauty of this community.
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Yeap specially that guy with the FM he still doesn’t get it he got it all wrong :lol:
sent from my Xperia Z3 compact via TapaTalk
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ENOUGH !
I’m not sure how many of you have actually been through actual military flight training or how many of you have any actual combat aircraft under your belts; but, given some of the snotty answers given on this thread, the answer appears to be ‘NONE’.
Here’s how it goes in the REAL world of military aviation……
You get buried in reference materials and things to learn. There is PLENTY of reading, memorizing, browsing BUT you are given a syllabus. You are provided a way to get from schoolhouse door to flightdeck. Systems, avionics, weapons training, weather, aeronautical knowledge…all picked up along the way. Drilled, messed up, drilled again, fixed and built upon- and that is where mentorship comes into play, HEAVILY.
Your knowledges seems to be limited to your country only (?)
Speaking about RL military formation … It doesn’t exactly works the same everywhere. Of course, yes, there are syllabus blah blah blah … but the mentor will not teach you how to start your engine.A trainee who is not self-educated has ZERO chance to finish the course and will never be graduated (c.f. some of my previous posts).
Now, we are used to know that there is a big difference between Anglo-Saxon pedagogy and the French pedagogy which is (I can admit) relatively particular. :munch: (Sometimes, I dreamt of being English, American, or even Belgian. )
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Seems that you’ve posted some interesting things … so I am curious about the rest …
, to say nothing of the flight model, weapons, systems, ad infinitum, ad nausea- you are terribly mistaken. Makes no sense at all, nor does getting all ‘RTFM’ about getting the same questions over and over in the absence of such a resource.
…
Dismissed
Humm … of course, one must be curious to be able to find more than the “General Discussion” forum room.
… and you know, this is mainly the purposes of VFW which are also providing syllabus, documents and helps on their forums. Quite often, in their “native” languages.
I think you can go out, (and close the door behind you, it is cold here! )
And when/if you will be back …
So far as ‘barking’ how it is done; it is inconsistent at best to create this sim and its manuals to be as realistic as possible (VERY realistic) and then fail to go the distance by providing the basic structure all military aviation students receive.
… please, to not come without some (consistent) syllabus to provide (maybe a Website! :D) which will better than the shit we have for now.
I can’t wait to know how you will share your knowledges and what are the A to Z basic structure that all military aviation students receive. (just curious maybe I could propose it the the FAF training school commander. Because for now, they only have this … ONLY (not talking about check-lists of courses), but has almost to be known by heart. -
Cyborgmudhen simmer down and please be respectful towards others.
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Coming from no real world flight training at all, I can honestly say that reading the god damn manuals is the answer to learning this sim. Now I did watch all of Krauses tutorials and more. And I did fly online with ppl. But at no point did the vids or the ppl I flew with show me anything not in the manuals. Sure they pointed out things I had yet to learn, but when I dropped back to look at the books, what they showed me was right there in the manual.
Long story short, you CAN learn this sim on your own.
Step 1= RTFM
Step 2= Watch tutorial vids
Step 3= Print out checklist and important pages from manuals, like ramp start in 3 sweeps,the hotas configs for the different modes and the weapon emploment chapters.
Step 4= Practice, practice, practiceAs already stated, this website is more about the creation of the game. While there is alot, and I mean alot, of helpful ppl here. This website is not a virtual squad. So for someone here to say RTFM or “you need to join a vfw”, they are not being elitist jerks. They have just given you the best advice you will ever, ever get.
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Also, there are tons of people here who are willing to help. But it’s not fair to be upset at them for expecting you to do a little work yourself. If you truly can’t find the answer to your question that is one thing, but if you haven’t even taken the time to look, don’t be surprised when someone says RTFM.
Let’s not forget that the “raison d’être” of the manual is also to help people. Back with 4.32, except the dash1, we had to refer 10 years old publication with a lot of stuff confisung for the users. the situation was even worse.
The 4.33 manual initiative was specifically made to help people get rid of that confusion and have information specific and relevant to the latest version of BMS.Of course you can’t really make a manual for BMS in 45 pages. There are so many things to cover that inevitably, the volume of the manuals will be important….
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Here is (another example) how “RTFM” (Read The Flight Manual) can help : https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?26934-Navigation-Timing-carrot-lt&p=379474&viewfull=1#post379474
… is it a “jerk attitude”?
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This is a point that has been said many times in this thread (I woner how many forum-wide), yet it seems mislooked quite often, and that’s sad: the difference between ‘RTFM’ and ‘RTFM @page xx’ may seem small but it does all the ‘F’ing’ difference (‘F’ing’ as in ‘Read The Flight Manual’).
OP’s point is to find a solution to avoid the ‘RTFM’ answer, which is great. Just let me point out that I’m quite new here and so far every answer that I’ve seen has been ‘RTFM @page xx’-like, which is an answer with more quality than any of the alternatives we (myself included) have suggested. -
Thank you Serolrom,
This is at least the Dev and Mods modus operandi
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I’m a bit late to how this thread has developed so this might have been said earlier:
If all you can say in answer to a question is RTFM with no further clarification all YOU are doing is demotivating the guy asking the question, annoying folks who find this kind of response rude and increasing your post count.
If however you point the person to the area of the manual to read, or even just to the manual, then you helped. If you gave an answer and pointed to where you found it then you have provided the guy asking the question with a learning resource and hopefully motivated him to learn a bit more. Yes posting a link to a thread helps, but so too just saying that it has been asked before and suggestion what to search for.
Yes it is an buggeration when the same question keeps getting asked and apparently no attempt has been made to find an answer. Yes it is a pain in the arse when folks don’t use the search button but remember this:
A lot of folks posting on the forums aren’t native English speakers and may not understand what they have read (try reading a Mig 3 pilots notes translated from Russian to English via Google and you’ll know what it feels like). Also they may not be phrasing the question “correctly” sounding blunt or direct and as having not tried.
A lot of folks using the forums don’t know the correct TLA (Three Letter Acronym) or name for a function to be able to search for it.
Folks may not have the same standard or education as others or (like myself) be so old as to have nearly forgotten how to learn. Learning is a skill that needs to be practiced.
If new people can’t be bothered to learn then they will soon loose interest in BMS as you will never know it all and there is always something new to learn.
Basically if you can’t help; your answer isn’t going to further the guy asking the question knowledge then ask yourself if you should post at all or just move on to a topic of more interest to yourself.
Being on the forums isn’t a race to be the guy with the most posts after all it’s to share our enjoyment of BMS. -
I agree with you Tiffy.
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Pumpyhead,
You live up to the name……well.Hmmmm. Already with an ad hominem attack? My two year old son saddled me with that moniker in a fit of pique 18 years ago. Though admittedly an odd call sign, I think I’ll stick with it.
Be ye advised that when I did show up, my IPs did not simply say ‘RTFM, maggot’.
Neither did I imply they did. I did; however, imply that you would have been foolish to go to class without having been fully prepared by reading the manual.
I was confronted with stair step training, a logical way to get from point A to B and beyond. That’s how it works in the real world.
Indeed. Point A is usually read the manual.
I do not know exactly what abject lack of esteem has led to supporting the clubbing of baby seals for no other reason than ‘you can’, nor do I care. What I do know is that it’s truly your problem, not mine.
Perhaps you should go back and read what I posted. I do not support a “rtfm” approach in the least. What I do support; however, is a modicum of self help.
I believe you.
You are a jerk.
Congrats ?Dismissed.
Yet again with an ad hominem attack? That is usually a sign of someone without a tenable argument. Either that or someone unable to properly express that argument.
Good day
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
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Have you been frustrated before by someone who gave you an RTFM line without further explanation ? i am asking because you are missing the point i think, you basically say the same thing that other were saying …. but you seem not to understand that there are two or three typed of people asking questions here.
Have you ever seen someone stating that he has read the manual, and that he doesn’t understand being told to “RTFM”?
All we are saying is that if you plan to use Mavericks for an example, read the Maverick chapter first and related chapters … and then ask how it works if you do not understand. Because most of the time people ask questions which clearly indicate they did not read the manual …
You are getting so emotional and hoped up … and please stop saying this is how it works in real life, because you are starting to sound like apart from you, no one has a clue how it works in real life. If you have a real life background in aviation, good for you, as do many other people here.
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Actually I think we are all basically saying the same thing, just maybe in different ways.
I don’t think any of the posts above disagree on the basic tenets of how we should operate on the forum:
We should treat each other with respect and courtesy; never just RTFM.
We should refer to specific chapters and pages of manuals; not spoonfeed.
We should understand if more help is needed; not everyone is fluent in English.
We should not post unless we have something constructive to say.As to the appropriate approach to learning to fly in BMS, everyone has different preferred learning styles. We understand that, we have only so much time however, so will never be able to cater to everyone. The format of the documentation included in 4.33 does at least give people a route to take from installing and configuring software and hardware, to ramp starting the jet from cold, to delivering munitions on target, to refuelling and recovering the jet safely. If you want to take it further then there are additional real-life manuals included in the installation and of course, the forum and information on VFWs who can provide additional online training and enjoyment.
If anyone wants more then by all means feel free to provide it and give something back to the community.
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Have you been frustrated before by someone who gave you an RTFM line without further explanation ? i am asking because you are missing the point i think, you basically say the same thing that other were saying …. but you seem not to understand that there are two or three typed of people asking questions here.
Have you ever seen someone stating that he has read the manual, and that he doesn’t understand being told to “RTFM”?
All we are saying is that if you plan to use Mavericks for an example, read the Maverick chapter first and related chapters … and then ask how it works if you do not understand. Because most of the time people ask questions which clearly indicate they did not read the manual …
You are getting so emotional and hoped up … and please stop saying this is how it works in real life, because you are starting to sound like apart from you, no one has a clue how it works in real life. If you have a real life background in aviation, good for you, as do many other people here.
Emotional ?
Over a flight sim ?
Well, I guess imagination does play a part here. Consider toning yours down, Spooky.While you are at it, smell what you are shoveling- this is a terribly immersive simulation to say the least. Imploring me to ignore ‘real life’ when it does not appear to suit you says far more about where you are coming from than anything else, and it ain’t exactly complementary. It’s the level of ‘real worldlyness’ that is astonishing. To be so accurate, and then to turn around and to be so immediately resistant to real world educational tactics techniques and procedures is baffling, to say the least. It’s not a pleasant smell at all.
As stated previously, I’ll take a look to see what you and Redshift are talking about, specifically noobs who can’t fly a pattern but decide asking questions about dropping LGBs without having bothered ‘doing their homework’ is the way to go.