How can you hold altitude while refueling.
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Rudder is not necessary to refuel. Is your HOTAS Cougar a default (moving) one, or modded with Force Control?
The biggest mistake you’re probably making is over-correcting, which often ends in a pilot-induced oscillation (PIO). When that happens, especially under the tanker, the best advise is to back off a bit, re-stabilise and try again.
A few tricks to avoid PIO:- It’s better to make dozens of small corrections instead of a single big one. The jet will always lag a bit behind your input, even if only a fraction of a second. By making small inputs, you give yourself more time to assess the output and if necessary, correct.
- If you feel like you’re only making it worse, just let go of the stick and let the aircraft fly itself for a short moment. Just make sure you’re pointed away from anything you do not want to hit when you let go.
A big part of formation flying (which AAR is, in the end) is also confidence. Initially, you’re scared to death to fly into your wingman (in this case, the tanker), and will push away the moment you think you’re getting too close. Get yourself over that threshold of fear and take it a tiny bit closer each time. We have the advantage of this being a sim, so nobody really cares if you get reduced to a big ball of fire…
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the F-16 flies according to different rules depending on it’s configuration.
for example. in normal flight the F-16 holds +1G so if i cruise at say 10k feet level and i add power i do not start climbing or descending in any significant manner.
however. if i open the AAR door and i fly at 10k feet level and i add power the F-16 will suddenly start climbing, and this is what trips pilots up underneath the boom. as they are not used to the throttle controlling vertical movement as well.so what happends is this. in normal config (gear up AAR closed) the FLCS in the F-16 holds +1G (it’s far more complicated but i’m simplifying it)
when the gear is down OR the AAR door is open the FLCS is now holding pitch (gun cross stays where it is untill you move the stick to change its position)so in AAR configuration when you add power you have to compensate for it by pushing against the stick and vice versa for reducing power. and this introduces what is known as PIO as Eagle-eye mentioned before. you are already subconsciously compensating for this but you compensate too much and as the F-16 lags behind esp with engine inputs you start to over correct. so as Eagle eye mentioned you need to make your corrections but at the same time not put too much and give the jet time to react to your corrections.
you might be wondering… but isnt this making AAR harder. and at first yes it would. but AAR is done often in a turn or at some bank angle. and this is where the brilliance of this system comes into play in my eyes at least. as this makes refueling in a turn so much easier.
i hope this more technical and theoretical explanation helps you in addition to what Eagle eye has already said.
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Rudder is not necessary to refuel. Is your HOTAS Cougar a default (moving) one, or modded with Force Control?
The biggest mistake you’re probably making is over-correcting, which often ends in a pilot-induced oscillation (PIO). When that happens, especially under the tanker, the best advise is to back off a bit, re-stabilise and try again.
A few tricks to avoid PIO:- It’s better to make dozens of small corrections instead of a single big one. The jet will always lag a bit behind your input, even if only a fraction of a second. By making small inputs, you give yourself more time to assess the output and if necessary, correct.
- If you feel like you’re only making it worse, just let go of the stick and let the aircraft fly itself for a short moment. Just make sure you’re pointed away from anything you do not want to hit when you let go.
A big part of formation flying (which AAR is, in the end) is also confidence. Initially, you’re scared to death to fly into your wingman (in this case, the tanker), and will push away the moment you think you’re getting too close. Get yourself over that threshold of fear and take it a tiny bit closer each time. We have the advantage of this being a sim, so nobody really cares if you get reduced to a big ball of fire…
Hi! Thanks for your response. I use default Hotas Cougar. I could contact and got refueling for seconds after reading your writing. Even if that was few seconds, it was great
improvement for me. -
the F-16 flies according to different rules depending on it’s configuration.
for example. in normal flight the F-16 holds +1G so if i cruise at say 10k feet level and i add power i do not start climbing or descending in any significant manner.
however. if i open the AAR door and i fly at 10k feet level and i add power the F-16 will suddenly start climbing, and this is what trips pilots up underneath the boom. as they are not used to the throttle controlling vertical movement as well.so what happends is this. in normal config (gear up AAR closed) the FLCS in the F-16 holds +1G (it’s far more complicated but i’m simplifying it)
when the gear is down OR the AAR door is open the FLCS is now holding pitch (gun cross stays where it is untill you move the stick to change its position)so in AAR configuration when you add power you have to compensate for it by pushing against the stick and vice versa for reducing power. and this introduces what is known as PIO as Eagle-eye mentioned before. you are already subconsciously compensating for this but you compensate too much and as the F-16 lags behind esp with engine inputs you start to over correct. so as Eagle eye mentioned you need to make your corrections but at the same time not put too much and give the jet time to react to your corrections.
you might be wondering… but isnt this making AAR harder. and at first yes it would. but AAR is done often in a turn or at some bank angle. and this is where the brilliance of this system comes into play in my eyes at least. as this makes refueling in a turn so much easier.
i hope this more technical and theoretical explanation helps you in addition to what Eagle eye has already said.
Thanks. Your explanation helped me how to control altitude and why.
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but AAR is done often in a turn or at some bank angle.
Indeed so in BMS, but as far as I’ve heard, IRL it’s very rare to refuel in a turn. Pilots would rather (disconnect and) wait for the turn to be completed before taking on fuel. If so, I’m not sure what the reason was, but I assume differences in aerodynamic forces between tanker / fighter could be a factor.
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Indeed so in BMS, but as far as I’ve heard, IRL it’s very rare to refuel in a turn. Pilots would rather (disconnect and) wait for the turn to be completed before taking on fuel. If so, I’m not sure what the reason was, but I assume differences in aerodynamic forces between tanker / fighter could be a factor.
We refuel in turns all the time. I’d probably make fun of someone if they disconnected, let the tanker turn, and then started taking gas again.
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the F-16 flies according to different rules depending on it’s configuration.
for example. in normal flight the F-16 holds +1G so if i cruise at say 10k feet level and i add power i do not start climbing or descending in any significant manner.
however. if i open the AAR door and i fly at 10k feet level and i add power the F-16 will suddenly start climbing, and this is what trips pilots up underneath the boom. as they are not used to the throttle controlling vertical movement as well.so what happends is this. in normal config (gear up AAR closed) the FLCS in the F-16 holds +1G (it’s far more complicated but i’m simplifying it)
when the gear is down OR the AAR door is open the FLCS is now holding pitch (gun cross stays where it is untill you move the stick to change its position)so in AAR configuration when you add power you have to compensate for it by pushing against the stick and vice versa for reducing power. and this introduces what is known as PIO as Eagle-eye mentioned before. you are already subconsciously compensating for this but you compensate too much and as the F-16 lags behind esp with engine inputs you start to over correct. so as Eagle eye mentioned you need to make your corrections but at the same time not put too much and give the jet time to react to your corrections.
you might be wondering… but isnt this making AAR harder. and at first yes it would. but AAR is done often in a turn or at some bank angle. and this is where the brilliance of this system comes into play in my eyes at least. as this makes refueling in a turn so much easier.
i hope this more technical and theoretical explanation helps you in addition to what Eagle eye has already said.
Although landing gains are implemented in BMS, and there’s a change in gains as the AAR door opens, I doubt what you explains is implemented in BMS? (might be wrong and the effect too subtle to be noticed, MavJp should be the one to rule this one)
If I put the throttle at idle and accelerate, the FPM will indeed stays at 1G level
if I open the AAR door, and do the same, I don’t see the FPM going up. So it’s the same behaviour.So with BMS in mind, and to answer the OP I think it’s irrelevant. Interesting, but not valid in BMS
(that said, I may have understoof why refuelling in the turn is harder in BMS -
Here is a post by mav jp explaining what I said there in some more detail
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?p=117494
I’d say it’s relevant. But every brain works differently.
Some need to know why stuff happens and others fly more by instinct. I just wanted to add the extra bit of info to the flcs into his question so he knows why he bounces up and down
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
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@Red:
Although landing gains are implemented in BMS, and there’s a change in gains as the AAR door opens, I doubt what you explains is implemented in BMS? (might be wrong and the effect too subtle to be noticed, MavJp should be the one to rule this one)
If I put the throttle at idle and accelerate, the FPM will indeed stays at 1G level
if I open the AAR door, and do the same, I don’t see the FPM going up. So it’s the same behaviour.I think your install may be broken, RD. I do see the FPM rise and lower vice the nose, in landing gains.
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I doubt my install is broken
i’ll retry eventually, but the quick test (4.33.2) i made showed no significant difference.https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4ihu20k18iuf9j/DC_Hammer.jpg?dl=0
Well said
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Lot of work for not much gain, to patrol for only a half hour. I have flights in my logbook on BfB of over 3 hours wheels up to touchdown.
Unless you fly slow enough to hit the blended region, you wont see a big difference - only a few degrees. That however, is significant.
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Indeed, but aar is made at 300 kts, so that might explain why the difference is not just as high as when flying approach speed in the 140-160 region…
bottom line for me, even if enabled and i don’t detect it, it doesn’t make my life any easier in the tanker turns -
Back to the original inquiry I think on AAR I have taken fuel in climb, dive, turn and possibly the tanker did a barrel roll and I never noticed. The “frozen relative spacing” is a feeling that runs deep in the brain. When you look at the tanker there is a certain impression that is generated when it has no relative motion that isn’t intellectual but animal. Such thoughts about constant altitude shouldn’t be entertained.
AAR is a positioning problem which has a long chain of abstractions between you and the situation:
Position - this is where you are and the goal is to have a good position and to keep it there as time goes on.
Motion - motion changes position over time.
Attitude (RPM) - attitude changes velocity.
Controls - change attitude and RPM.Hopefully the link between control manipulation and airplane state (attitude, RPM) is second nature by now but it does take time for changes to evolve, especially throttle. Starting with a “second skin” type control over attitude that will determine how your speed changes, aka acceleration. This will not be as natural as the first layer of control, a side-slide will be bank to begin the slide, level to continue it, and counterbank to stop it for example. Position is by application of these velocities in a smart way. In general the smaller the positions, velocities, accelerations are the smaller the control inputs. The desire is to bracket the ideal values and shrink the bounds. There’s no way to be perfectly still in the exact position. All you can hope to do is bounce within an acceptable box and attempt to shrink the box. Get a feel for the changes you are making and try to reduce their magnitude with each reversal.
Maybe some nose down trim will help as you aren’t in the middle of the stick forces.
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I get what you are saying as I experience the same thing now frederf but that is a natural evolution or progression of skill over time.
I don’t think that it can be taught though. only learned through repetition.
But I could not have put it into words
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What I end up doing if AAR in the turn is to give four taps to the trim switch for nose up. It doesn’t negate the lift lost due to the 30 degree turn but it does reduce the amount of force you need to apply to hold position. It also helps if you have the trim reset programmed as well to get back to neutral after you exit the turn.
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Real jet doesnt have trim reset…
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so really, why fly BMS? I dont see your logic.
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We can fly BMS as it actually exists …. or we can fly some undefined/individual user-defined sub-set of BMS that reflects what we wish BMS to be (selective realism).
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so really, why fly BMS? I dont see your logic.
For fun, learning, or whatever reason anyone wants. He obviously likes having a trim reset, why do you care that he uses it?