Yellow spider
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@Red:
As far as I know, the Spider lock isn’t implemented in BMS.
There is no callback for that and there’s no variable in the shared memAIC doens’t have it either - it reads the value of the canopy warning bit and that one is from the canopy switch alone
I could make a feature request but it’s going to be low priority.
Does Martin’s support for the spider has that button? (I have a spider but no support for it yet)Yes - it has the support for both the Canopy switch an the roller topped plunger switch that is actuated by the spider. Simple enough task for us cockpit builders to add some external logic in Pokeys to blend the two switches into operation of the one bit/callback. I believe there are a number of instances like this where BMS doesn’t support a function that I’m planning to implement in hardware. I’ll report as I encounter.
EDIT: Actually, RD - going back and looking at pictures again it looks like the two switches require two different mountings, one of which looks like it is on the cabin structure and not the bracket (hard to find a good picture of the mounting, with the side panel plastic removed). But the possibility is still there for a pit builder to mount and interface both switches - I have both switches and intend to use them.
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I also have a real spider, but it has one switch only for moving the canopy. The spider itself is nothing more than a large switch guard and is not connected to any ciruit at all. The spider limits the travel of the throttle as it is in front of it. It makes it possible to taxi with the canopy open, but not setting full power.
The canopy light on the glareshield comes on if the pressure seal of the canopy is not correct (and/or canopy is open)
The light will be off as soon as the canopy is closed. The spider position has nothing to do with this.As far as I can tell the it works as it should in BMS and you don’t need to change anything.
EDIT: One thing I forgot… The inside of the spider has a little part which can be adjusted. When you close the spider this part pushes the canopy switch down. So no need to hold the switch down and wait, you can just close the spider.
And as always, there might be different versions.
Gr Falcas
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Hi Falcas, some extra info to think about. The spider has no electronics, thats correct, but the spider does not push the switch down, it protects the middle position of the switch. To open the canopy , just put the switch in up position. When a pilot wants to make fun with the crewchief , he leaves the switch there. When the crewchief closes the canopy from the outside and walks away after closing, the canopy re-opens
There are several momentary switches in the cockpit that are activated after the canopy is closed, one of them is beneath the spider, another one is in front of the aft glareshield. The spider activates the one beneath it. Another function of the spider is activate the valve for floating the canopy seal, after opening the spider the seal will be depressed.
For closing the canopy the pilot needs to hold the switch down, its a safety situation, there could a hand of the crewchief or something else on the canopy sill. Releases the switch stops closing immediatly. The pilot holds the switch until the hooks of the canopyframe crab the latches (6 of them)
For our sims we need to make some electronics or hardware to simulate the canopy operation correctly.
Edit : there might be a combination of activation that turn the light of, i will do extra study -
The spider is indeed nothing more than a guard
The canopy switch is right. The pushbutton that inflate the seal is left.
The spider guards the canopy switch but press the pushbuttonAs far as I can tell, there is no push button on Martin’s adapter. the hole for the canopy switch support is there, but no support for the pushbutton. The reason is that that push button is inside the left sidewall, it’s not on the canopy spider support. (in fairness so isn’t the canopy switch hole But Martin smartly decided to make it part of the support assy)
I just wasn’t able yet to figure out which part of the spider pushes it…. It seems it’s the half round part of the spider but the image below tend to prove otherwise unless that part was broken…EDIT: One thing I forgot… The inside of the spider has a little part which can be adjusted. When you close the spider this part pushes the canopy switch down. So no need to hold the switch down and wait, you can just close the spider.
I thought so too, but looking at this picture, it seems not quite possible
Look at how the switch is pinched between the fixed end of the spider and the adjustable part?
It doesn’t seem to me that the switch has enough room to be held down by the adjustable spider parts.
Beside that would be an obvious breach of an important canopy closing safety feature, no? -
Great info and very nice picture, the half circle part presses the valve. On the spider there is an extension forward of the switch protection. That one presses the switch with the little wheel. When you have a real spider you can see that the paint is off at that point. The spider is indeed not pressing the switch down.
I own all parts of the spider section, i only miss the top of the valve. If anybody has that part for me, it would be great !
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in a BMS cockpit, any pushbutton will do.
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I also have a real spider, but it has one switch only for moving the canopy. The spider itself is nothing more than a large switch guard and is not connected to any ciruit at all. The spider limits the travel of the throttle as it is in front of it. It makes it possible to taxi with the canopy open, but not setting full power.
Ok a few problems here. The spider handle doesn’t do anything to raise or lower the canopy at all. It simply covers the canopy switch and triggers the canopy seal inflation. The spider handle does NOT limit movement of the throttle to prevent AB activation on the ground when in the up position.
As far as I can tell the it works as it should in BMS and you don’t need to change anything.
You are missing what they are asking for which is two callbacks for two completely different actions just like on the real aircraft. BMS has it simplified to one action/callback.
EDIT: One thing I forgot… The inside of the spider has a little part which can be adjusted. When you close the spider this part pushes the canopy switch down. So no need to hold the switch down and wait, you can just close the spider.
Sorry but wrong answer again. The canopy switch is a three position switch. It will hold in either the middle/no move position or in the up/open position. The down/close position is spring loaded to go back to the middle/no move position. When you close the spider handle this forces the canopy switch to the middle/no move position NOT the close/down position so no closing the spider handle does NOT start to close the canopy. This would also make zero sense as the spider handle is what triggers the canopy seal to inflate and the canopy is not going to seat properly with an inflated seal in it’s way never mind actually pressurizing.
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@JJO:
Hi Falcas, some extra info to think about. The spider has no electronics, thats correct, but the spider does not push the switch down, it protects the middle position of the switch. To open the canopy , just put the switch in up position.
With the caveat that this cannot be done with the spider handle in the down position even without ECS running.
@JJO:
When a pilot wants to make fun with the crewchief , he leaves the switch there. When the crewchief closes the canopy from the outside and walks away after closing, the canopy re-opens
Well I wouldn’t say it was pilots intentionally messing with CC as it is just human nature to push it to the open position and leave it there while collecting your things waiting for the canopy to finish opening and for the ladder. If I had a nickle for every time I’ve seen the magic opening canopy though. Done it a few times myself. Even worse if it is a D model. Takes longer to full open and close.
@JJO:
There are several momentary switches in the cockpit that are activated after the canopy is closed, one of them is beneath the spider, another one is in front of the aft glareshield.
Yeah the glare shield switch should be for the system to know the canopy claws are fully inserted thus canopy fully closed.
@JJO:
For closing the canopy the pilot needs to hold the switch down, its a safety situation, there could a hand of the crewchief or something else on the canopy sill. Releases the switch stops closing immediatly. The pilot holds the switch until the hooks of the canopyframe crab the latches (6 of them)
Yuppers.
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Red Dog - Albert J has included some very nice pictures of his spider installation in his VP build thread here (scroll down through) -
http://www.viperpits.org/smf/index.php/topic,7674.msg149537.html#msg149537
Looks just as you say (three switches in place), but what I now think about Martin’s spider mount is that it only includes/incorporates a bracket to mount the canopy toggle switch (which looks to be the mirror image of Albert’s installation); it also incorporates an extended bracket to attach the bottom end of the spider spring tube (I only have the drawings in Martin’s catalog to look at). I don’t know if it has a provision for the roller switch, but I can certainly add that bracket if I desire - and I do, seeing as I have the real switch. Note how Albert has mounted brackets and switch assemblies directly to his pit structure - as note previously, there is no reason a builder can’t install all three switches as Albert J has done and then to some Pokeys or Arduino wizardry to get BMS to exhibit the desired behavior.
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Thanks all for many replies. keeps one big question unanswered. When is the warninglight off. (1. after closing the canopy or 2. after closing the canopy and with the spider down) My quess is the second option , maybe Stubbies2003 can step in here.
The spider option of Martin is only made for eyecandy and protecting the switch. His construction is made for 90 pct of us as pitbuilders. My cockpit is based on real construction and the spider construction of Martin is not usuable. The spring of the spider is connected to a bracked that is connected to one of the ribconstructions. Big compliments for his work, and he knows that from me
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Noob sim question: the canopy can be closed very first thing in ramp start. Is that realistic modeling? If so, where does the power come from?
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Jet is connected to power cart on the ramp.
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Jet is connected to power cart on the ramp.
Not necessary. According to the -1, the canopy actuator is powered by emergency DC Bus no. 2, and power is available from the internal battery bus box when main pwr switch is in OFF position.
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the F-16 is pretty autonomous, it doesn’t need a power cart unless on maintenance.
What would be the point to connect a power cart only to open the canopy from outside for the first flight of the day
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@JJO:
Thanks all for many replies. keeps one big question unanswered. When is the warninglight off. (1. after closing the canopy or 2. after closing the canopy and with the spider down) My quess is the second option , maybe Stubbies2003 can step in here.
The spider option of Martin is only made for eyecandy and protecting the switch. His construction is made for 90 pct of us as pitbuilders. My cockpit is based on real construction and the spider construction of Martin is not usuable. The spring of the spider is connected to a bracked that is connected to one of the ribconstructions. Big compliments for his work, and he knows that from me
My guess would be that the Warning should extinguish once the canopy seal is inflated…so, once the spider is down and possibly (probably…) not until sometime post engine start after bleed air is available to pressurize the inflatable seal.
Martin’s bracket is made to allow full function of the spider - it’s just that he’s incorporated some time saving brackets. And it will also be interesting to see how it fits into his side structure, once that is available…I’m very tempted to buy his whole metal pit structure…IF I can handle the cost of shipping to the USA!
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IMHO - and I should check before saying what I think , the WARNING light is mechanically latched with the hooks. Once the last hooks engage the warning light should go off
The seal has nothing to do with the safe closing of the canopy.
It’s a cabin pressure feature and that one should rather be linked to the cabin press caution light. Well not directly linked but rather if the seal has a problem, the cabin press caution light will come on because the pressurisation won’t be normal -
Makes sense, RD…as I forgot about the second warning light!!! Was just thinking about the third switch under the canopy that controls the pressurization.
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Can we conclude that after closing the spider and the canopy is closed the warning light goes off ?
To Reddog, can you add the full function of the canopy switch and spider in the wishlist for BMS ? -
In regards of what has been discussed here above, I think BMS works exactly the correct way.
The CANOPY Warning Light on the right glareshied goes off a slight delay after full canopy closure animation (which includes the spider closing)
That slight delay is for the hook to engageSo IMHO, there is nothing to request, it’s already correctly implemented
unless you want something else?
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In Bms there is now the simplified canopy function, offcourse enough for most users. My request is that the switch and spider works as it should be.
1. Switch up, canopy open
2. Momentary hold switch down for closing the canopy
3. After closing the spider, the canopy warning light goes off.To be honoust, i have not a slight idea, if programming this request is easy or complicated. The bms team is fantastic and i notice they try to reach perfection. Maybe my request is possible ?