CCRP release parameters
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Yeah I know the azimuth steering line (ASL) for lateral steering. I thought you were mentioning a pitch steering cue for the pull up. In LADD (real) the fuze arm/clobber-looking cue actually scrolls up the center of the HUD in an upward direction to help with pitch steering.
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Yes AB should definitely not be needed. Sometimes if it’s extremely hot out on a pop attack we’ll tap min burner when popping 30 degs. nose high. This is only because we have a TR (training rule) that doesn’t allow you to go below 350 knots in a pop attack.
Thanks for the heads-up. My personal experience shows AB not strictly needed, but an adherence to the numbers is almost vital. Lazy pull-ups and the like will often result in a failure to meet the release requirements, but if you are deliberate the bombs will usually drop. Going full AB makes the whole process a lot less prone to error, however I do appreciate there are times when full AB is undesirable too.
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Thanks for the heads-up. My personal experience shows AB not strictly needed, but an adherence to the numbers is almost vital. Lazy pull-ups and the like will often result in a failure to meet the release requirements, but if you are deliberate the bombs will usually drop. Going full AB makes the whole process a lot less prone to error, however I do appreciate there are times when full AB is undesirable too.
A strict adherence to the numbers for BMS will invariable result in a failure to meet the programmed release, and frequently a failure to release at all.
Any AB means not adhering to the numbers, so there is that.
The state of BMS means trying to perform a loft by the numbers is a waste of effort, effort that would be better spent lobbying the devs to fix the loft code.
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A strict adherence to the numbers for BMS will invariable result in a failure to meet the programmed release, and frequently a failure to release at all.
Any AB means not adhering to the numbers, so there is that.
The state of BMS means trying to perform a loft by the numbers is a waste of effort, effort that would be better spent lobbying the devs to fix the loft code.
Okay, I’m uninstalling now… my life is at an end.
- PS - Ice, I’m still having it on Tuesday as discussed.
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Id add the /sarcasm tag to my signature block, but seeing as the sig is displayed maybe once per 40 posts, it wouldnt help…
Perks of a text only communique. In any event, a ‘deliberate’ pull up on the numbers will invariably result in no solution - unless initiated late, i.e. after max range is passed.
Both Frederf and I have had the discussion about CCRP lofting several times… with testing. And the consensus was that unless you delay your pull until well inside the range indicated, you will pull past 45 with no solution.
So there is a frustration there I suspect, borne of evidently differing personal experience.
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After doing more testing tonight, I think we are the victims of 2 separate bugs.
Bug #1
I believe that the CCRP calculation has the wind direction reversed. In my campaign save file (the one from the video above) I played with invulnerability and unlimited fuel so I could experiment, and discovered that if I attacked from the other direction (with a tailwind) using the same speed and pulled up when the loft cue appeared, the release cue moved smartly down the line and hit the flight path marker no problem. When I did it with a headwind, the release cue moved very slowly down the line and barely touched the flight path marker before moving back upwards. I think it is safe to say that it never reached the centre of the flight path marker, which would be required to trigger a release.
Also, look at this screenshot from testing tonight:
http://i.imgur.com/uuq6uax.jpg
The wind is coming from my right, but the steering line is to the left (downwind) of the target. Surely it should be upwind of the target.
To be sure, I added an 80 knot wind in my test TE (the max it would allow me to add). In the 3D world the DED showed the wind speed varying from about 65 to 75 knots. I noticed that flying on the deck at full mil power (roughly 550 KCAS) with a tailwind, the last flashing circle disappeared at around 5.0 NM from the target. With a headwind, it was around 5.6 NM from the target. This is backwards!! With a headwind you must be closer to the target.
I think that in a campaign if you have a decent headwind and pull up as soon as you see the loft cue, the release cue will not actually make it all the way to the centre of the flight path marker because you pulled up too early.
Another indication that the wind direction is reversed in the calculation … in my TE with the strong winds, when dropping with a headwind the bombs landed very short, but with a tailwind they landed very long … but in both directions they seemed to land in the same spot (based on the black marks on the ground).
(For the devs if you are reading this: I bet CCIP has the same issue)
Bug #2
Thank you whoever pointed out that the SMS shows REL or RDY based on whether the pickle button is pressed. I hadn’t noticed this before. During a couple of tests tonight I looked down and saw RDY even though I still had the pickle button down. I think this may have happened in the campaign video I posted, since I know I had the pickle button down well past the time when the release cue was near the flight path marker.
I did some tests to see how long I could hold the pickle button down before it flipped to RDY. It happened anywhere from 1 to 20 odd seconds. I think 25 was the longest I made it. This is in campaign mode. When I went back to the TE to try this, I made it to 2 minutes before I gave up. In other words, holding the pickle button down is perfect in the TE, and problematic in the campaign.
Pushing the pickle button as close as possible to the release point is good advice, because it seems to be quite unreliable. Based on my testing there is no specific safe time that it can be counted on to trigger a release. I think that for CCRP drops it is wise to have the SMS screen up and glance regularly at the REL/RDY notation to make sure it is registering that the button is still down.
It looks like the logic in the sim is that once the button appears to be released, it won’t register another press until the physical button is released. Can this logic be changed for CCRP mode? I am assuming that the code is polling the state of the buttons every frame. Surely if the button appears to be down and the system is in CCRP mode, then treat it as down.
Anyway, I think I have been bitten by the first bug occasionally in my campaign, (because I have noticed the release cue having a tough time making it to the flight path marker a few times), but a lot by the second bug. All CCRP drops (level or lofting) would be affected by the second bug. Everyone’s system and experience of this would probably be different, but for me only pressing the button a few seconds before release isn’t enough to guarantee a drop, as the status can flip to RDY on my system in as little as a second in campaign mode.
Hopefully someone from the BMS team notices this thread and can check the relevant code.
So I tested the first “bug” in the jet a couple days ago and this is how it worked. One thing I did notice, however, is that the steering line should be lined up with the TD container when the FPM is centered on the steering line no matter what the winds are. When you have the FPM displaced left of the steering line, the steering line is left of the TD container. When you have the FPM displaced right of the steering line, the steering line is right of the TD container. Again, no matter what the winds are.
I would have to do some more testing and think about it, but this means the bomb is being dropped in a crab (angle between FPM and boresight cross) instead of dropping it offset from the target (like the poster seems to think). Ideally you want the bomb to have as close to zero AOA when it hits. Smart weapons are able to do this depending on what the weapon is, dumb bombs not so much.
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So I tested the first “bug” in the jet a couple days ago and this is how it worked. One thing I did notice, however, is that the steering line should be lined up with the TD container when the FPM is centered on the steering line no matter what the winds are. When you have the FPM displaced left of the steering line, the steering line is left of the TD container. When you have the FPM displaced right of the steering line, the steering line is right of the TD container.
Juvat?
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Got a problem releasing MK.82 LDGP using CCRP level flight (not loft) . . . 20000ft, 400knots, locked ground target, arm switch on,steady flight, watching the cue . . . holding the pickle before the second cue hit the FPM . . . But the bomb’s r not released
Tried this 3 time in the campaign.i read in this discussion that the wind can be one of the problems . . . i had 14kntos headwind on the target area.
any suggestions ?
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Shooting in the dark here, but:
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don’t hold the pickle too long before. 2-3 seconds should suffice. I’ve heard of weapons not coming off if you pickle too early.
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Make sure you haven’t damaged your bombs earlier by going too fast/ flying too aggressive. <mach 1=“” and=“” <=“” 5g’s=“” should=“” do=“” it.<br=“”>3) make sure you’re not over mach 0.95 when trying to release. What’s the mach number at 400kn @ 20000ft? I don’t think it’s over mach one…
You probably know these already, but I figure maybe you missed something or forgot.
Cheers!</mach>
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Shooting in the dark here, but:
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don’t hold the pickle too long before. 2-3 seconds should suffice. I’ve heard of weapons not coming off if you pickle too early.
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Make sure you haven’t damaged your bombs earlier by going too fast/ flying too aggressive. <mach 1=“” and=“” <=“” 5g’s=“” should=“” do=“” it.<br=“”>3) make sure you’re not over mach 0.95 when trying to release. What’s the mach number at 400kn @ 20000ft? I don’t think it’s over mach one…
You probably know these already, but I figure maybe you missed something or forgot.
Cheers!</mach>
thank for the tips
I pressed the pickle well over the 2-3 seconds heheh . . . i will try your suggestion’s in my next campaign mission.
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O.K, tried CCRP bombing several times during my last two missions, only once i manage to release the bombs.
All the attack run’s was at the same parameters, but 90% of them i was failing to release the bombs.
Did the 2-3sec pickle, even configure WX to be with 4kts headwind, steady flight.
The marker always touches the FPM but no release and the marker start to move away from the FPM.Very Frustrated
Next mission i will go CCIP, i got to destroy the FuXXXing bridge . . . i guess i will get some SA-14 action
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Quote Originally Posted by eurybaric View Post
3) make sure you’re not over mach 0.95 when trying to release. What’s the mach number at 400kn @ 20000ft? I don’t think it’s over mach one…What is your mach on release? Try 350-375 kts. 400 kts seems a touch fast to ensure consistent release in level CCRP. It must be below 0.95 mach. Use mach, not kts for this.
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What is your mach on release? Try 350-375 kts. 400 kts seems a touch fast to ensure consistent release in level CCRP. It must be below 0.95 mach. Use mach, not kts for this.
Ok., i will watch my speed at my next mission and see what happens . . . BTW can i get on the safe side and go at 300-330kts or there is also minimum speed for releasing the bombs in CCRP ?
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. . . BTW can i get on the safe side and go at 300-330kts or there is also minimum speed for releasing the bombs in CCRP ?
Not sure about kts speed…… it depends on mach. Low CCRP parameter in mach is 0.60. This may be your issue, you are using kts and not mach. 0.95 mach is not locked to a speed in knots.
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Not sure about kts speed…… it depends on mach. Low CCRP parameter in mach is 0.60. This may be your issue, you are using kts and not mach. 0.95 mach is not locked to a speed in knots.
Ok, thanks man . . . no more kts, i will watch my mach speed and hope for the best.
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Edit …. scratch my last … on second thought, not sure that was good advice.
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Yep, my confidence is sure damaged . . . at my last mission i made 5-6 bombing run’s on the same target.
Maybe i was too fast like u guys saying so i will correct this on my next mission.Thanks
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O.K, managed to get good results. and now the bombs are released. I have to confirm the things that had me failed to release the bombs on my previous missions (i will do this on my next mission) :
1. Drift C/O should be on NORM position.
2. Pressing the pickle should be very close to the marker hit the FPM, even less than 1SEC.
3. Watched my mach number, 0.7 mach at the released time (at 22000ft) -
Just getting to this (incredibly informative) post. Thanks all for your detailed analysis. Was having consistent issues with CCRP releasing in campaign. Turned out it was truly as simple as waiting to pickle-and-hold until the very last half-second.
GT