A stealing by "cougar56th" !
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Well,
As a member of this forum and as a lover of FALCON BMS I have to weigh in with my opinion. I know Nikos work from the beginning of his efforts and I have to admit that it is always perfect. His Navigation aids and charts is up to the real ones as it is stated in his signature! Eight yeras now I use his Navaids and I can recognise easily what is his and what is not. Separately of his major contribution to Falcon BMS community Nikos appears to be a very kind person and a mature concrete thinker. So I’m on his side and I believe many othres among us are. Falcon BMS updates and any personal efforts should be respected and used accordingly. So If someone did took someone elses work and changed it a bit and impose it on this forum as his own should behave himself and show some respect to the owner of the work and most of all to all of us who love and support Falcon BMS and this forum. An apology is essential and beneficial….If anyone feels that I’m wrong or Nikos is wrong or something different is proven please accept my apologies.Nevertheless Moderators are kindly requested to dig deep on that. -
This post is deleted! -
I’m not going to get into an argument here……what started this was that I updated Casale airport with the airbase Homer did. I’m going to continue updating airbases throughout the theater. When I released Balkans 4.34.1, I asked Nikos if he would mind updating his navaids. His response was that of being upset because I did not inform him that I was updating Casale airbase before I released it. I am not required to tell him when I’m adding something to the Balkans. The stations+ils.dat file is a mixture of data between more than one person. The stations+ils.dat file does not belong to Nikos…as a matter of fact it belongs to the Balkans theater because without the file the sim will probably crash.
The PDF document of his approach charts are his so if he wants them removed I will gladly do it. The navaids listing is what I made and I kept it similar to his but easier to read. If I need to change it up a little bit fine. It amazes me how childish some people can be over something that people are trying to improve. I politely asked Nikos to update the navaids for me, and he sent me a nasty PM because I did not inform that I put Casale airbase in. It was something trivial that could have been avoided if he would have said “sure when I am able to” or “yes but could you please edit some stuff” like he has always done.
Like I said I am not here to start an argument. I will not remove the stations+ils.dat because it is required but the navaids chart will be removed and if it makes Nikos happy I’ll change the format of the navaids list but as far as the data goes, the data that he put into it and others have put into it including myself, I’m not going to change because like I said will crash the game because the file is not there.
“I asked Nikos if he would mind updating his navaids.”
Your specific words were: “Casale airport has been updated. I was wondering if you could make an ILS/departure charts and update the airport diagram chart”.
So where you asked about the NavAids? Learn that NavAids are the “stations+ils.dat” file and not the Navigation charts like the specific you requested.
I didn’t been upset because you didn’t inform me about specifically Casale airport changed, but because again you didn’t informed me as we have agreed for the changes at any/all airports/airstrips that you made in order to I be able to update my Navigation stuff for Balkans theater.“The stations+ils.dat file is a mixture of data between more than one person.” Are you serious to state this in a public state?
How many posts and proofs you need in order to accept an other guy’s work? How many?
Why don’t you give me/us a link of a post that you show YOUR work or any other’s into the specific “stations+ils.dat” file that I created?
I NEVER said to exclude at all the file “stations+ils.dat” in order to not have a working theater! I NEVER state that in general the file “stations+ils.dat” belongs to me!
BUT as a developer I create MINE with MY specific data into it. This is a fact and pure truth!
Red Dog for example creates his for Korea theater, EMF and some others. That means that the specific “stations+ils.dat” files and the rest Nav. stuff are his work!
The same counts for me!
Noone has the right to take them, remove the creators name and re-release them with an other name!
You didn’t created yours, you got mine make some very few modifications and then release them.
Nikos. -
OK gents, I proberly dont see the things the way some of you do, but I have seen something like this many times before.
fx. on viperpits, then someone makes a 3D print file of a part to share or sell, then another guy makes an even better version of that part and do the same and now we have it, the first guy thinks he and only he have the right to make that part because he came first and then the mud fight begins. And believe me I have see this many times in many different forms.
All I say is thay you cant be in any comunity and expect that is one person makes something and share, then no one else cant make that thing. ITS STUPID THINKING.
So if you dont wnat anybody to copy or recreate or optimize something you have made, then keep it for your self.
Not said we shall not have respect for others work, but this issue of a spreadsheet with data on what any Theater crerator can make is just stupid to make a big fuzz about and claim he is stealing you work.
If this should be the roule then we were proberly at SuperPack level and no progress was made in any areas, and we was spending more time in mudd fighting.
This is Just the basic of my total own opinion here, so I will let this be between the two parties and a moderator.
Kukki
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It seems unreasonable that if you give/offer/share a piece of work with a theater builder/manager/team that from that point forward no one but you can edit or update that work.
If you need/desire credit, then it’s fair enough that some indication ‘NavAids created by xxxx’ is included. If that is updated or edited to reflect theater changes, and as the original creator you still feel you need/desire credit, then something on the lines of ‘Original NavAids by xxxx, updated by xxxx’ seems fair enough.
However, once you’ve offered the work, and done so repeatedly over a period of time and a number of revisions, I don’t see where you should be able to demand it’s return and removal because of a chidlish snit about ‘credit’ and that a few simple updates were made without notifying you.
I suppose cases like this is why BMS requires contributors to formally give them rights to edit, change and use those contributions as BMS sees fit. Maybe that should be the framework for all theaters/theater builders.
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Sadly sometimes this wars only turn into, “i not do, and ALSO others can’t do”, in the final who suffers is community not having the stuff.
I see sadly some theaters that are not updated because someone not have time, but others cant also take the task….This is a community mod!!! no one here will earn more money from that, not even a better job. Ofc having credits is good and self rewardable but when you do something for free for community also don’t expect a gold statue. I did in the past many community (other sims) contributions, websites etc, including software developing for free and i don’t mind others collect it and redistribute it, its to the pleasure of all, its why is a community contribution and not a commercial product with copyrights agreements etc. Not to mention that the core data (navdata) the source is free and the file format is intelectual properties of the bms/falcon devs
Ofc i also agree that the biggest issue is with personal agreement of workload and work proccess, but that even exist with workers inside the same room with a overwatching boss, so through internet the things goes even worst and with different personalities sensibilities and expectations.
Final words, its sad see this kind of things and what realy goes hurt is not the lack of credits or the respect of some communications because many times it only feed egos, what realy hurts is the lack in the mods releases.
Yeah i know that for some i’m not right, but yeah its a practical way of view, because in the final, we are all here to get the mods and theaters, not to create a statue of credits -
“I asked Nikos if he would mind updating his navaids.”
Your specific words were: “Casale airport has been updated. I was wondering if you could make an ILS/departure charts and update the airport diagram chart”.
So where you asked about the NavAids? Learn that NavAids are the “stations+ils.dat” file and not the Navigation charts like the specific you requested.
I didn’t been upset because you didn’t inform me about specifically Casale airport changed, but because again you didn’t informed me as we have agreed for the changes at any/all airports/airstrips that you made in order to I be able to update my Navigation stuff for Balkans theater.“The stations+ils.dat file is a mixture of data between more than one person.” Are you serious to state this in a public state?
How many posts and proofs you need in order to accept an other guy’s work? How many?
Why don’t you give me/us a link of a post that you show YOUR work or any other’s into the specific “stations+ils.dat” file that I created?
I NEVER said to exclude at all the file “stations+ils.dat” in order to not have a working theater! I NEVER state that in general the file “stations+ils.dat” belongs to me!
BUT as a developer I create MINE with MY specific data into it. This is a fact and pure truth!
Red Dog for example creates his for Korea theater, EMF and some others. That means that the specific “stations+ils.dat” files and the rest Nav. stuff are his work!
The same counts for me!
Noone has the right to take them, remove the creators name and re-release them with an other name!
You didn’t created yours, you got mine make some very few modifications and then release them.
Nikos.Ok first off……
I am not, like we have talked about, required to tell you when I add something new to the Balkans.
Secondly
I did not update the navaids until I asked you and then you got defensive with it.
Thirdly
When I was talking about the navaids, I was talking about all of it with regards to Casale airbase. I was giving you the opportunity to update your work with the new airbase. You are the one who got defensive because I never told you that I had to update stuff.
Fourth,
The FRAGS had to be added to the stations+ils.dat to work correctly with 4.34.1.
The data that was put into the stations+ils.dat is data anyone could get from anywhere and data I would have put in anyway. What is the difference if you put 315.30 verse me putting 315.30… because it came from your fingers verses mine…give me a break.
I’ve tried to make a very popular theater for the community when I could have made it for myself or select few people. BMS is a work from many people and people within the community are what keep it strong and trying to be competitive with DCS and keep people interested in it. People who complain because someone is using someone else’s work or someone who thinks the work that is being used is there work when in reality it is numerous people trying to keep it up to date with the most current version. I’m sorry the data is similar and the same in some spots but that is how the dice roll. I want the Balkans to be accurate as possible too. Nikos requested that his work be in the install. The stations+ils.dat file is part of the theater and will always be. The numbers thAt are in it are the same numbers I would have put into it. Just because I edited it and added the FRAG sections is me keeping the stations+ils.dat file up to date with the most recent build.
If the community does not want the Balkans theater because it incorporates numerous individuals stuff, then I don’t have to release it to the public and I’ll take it down.
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It seems unreasonable that if you give/offer/share a piece of work with a theater builder/manager/team that from that point forward no one but you can edit or update that work.
If you need/desire credit, then it’s fair enough that some indication ‘NavAids created by xxxx’ is included. If that is updated or edited to reflect theater changes, and as the original creator you still feel you need/desire credit, then something on the lines of ‘Original NavAids by xxxx, updated by xxxx’ seems fair enough.
However, once you’ve offered the work, and done so repeatedly over a period of time and a number of revisions, I don’t see where you should be able to demand it’s return and removal because of a chidlish snit about ‘credit’ and that a few simple updates were made without notifying you.
I suppose cases like this is why BMS requires contributors to formally give them rights to edit, change and use those contributions as BMS sees fit. Maybe that should be the framework for all theaters/theater builders.
Honestly I can’t understand your point.
I was supported this theater (Balkans) years before “cougar56th” came in!
After he came in, I contacted him politely and offered him my work/support on the specific sector, the Air Navigation.
I ONLY asked him for a super easy/quick action by him each time that he would made an update: To spend 3-5 minutes to pass me the informations of what he changed to airports/airstrips on the theater in order then to I can update my Navigation work and send it back to him.
So since he doesn’t make this, why am I the wrong/bad guy here? Can you tell me?
Also why he has the right to release my work without my name at the same time that I don’t have the right to be informed by him for the changes at airports/airstrips?Question to all: Balkans theater belongs to “cougar56th” in order to he define who developer can offer to the theater as also which one will support it and ask him to contribute?
I think that all the extra theaters are from the community to the community and all of us have the right to support them! This means that the involved developers must be in a cooperation!
I say again that he denied a super easy and quick action to me, for second time. This is the fact and we must learn why…
Nikos. -
Guys, I suggest we all cool down.
It’s basically a matter between COugar and Nikos and we can all think what we want but it is irrelevantWe moderators are following and discussing the issue internally as well
few things we 'd regret are the fact that this is public when obviously it should have been dealt with internally. and the fact that credits seems to have been removed
and the fact that this will turn into a mess with other ppl input putting oil on the fire…I won’t say more till I get more inputs from other moderators, but we are just asking you guys not to make the situation worse with your own feelings for now.
Red Dog for example creates his for Korea theater, EMF and some others. That means that the specific “stations+ils.dat” files and the rest Nav. stuff are his work!
The same counts for me!No Nikos
I like to control the stations.dat file because it’s the base of all nav work and yes I am defensive about modifications, but I do not own the file. The file is owned by BMS
My work since you mention it is for the benefit of all BMS users and in that perspective I do not really care if it’s mine or called BMS ownership (charts)
(but devs know that as long as I am living i’ll continue working on these, and I have nothing to prove anymore )
But no, the station.dat file isn’t mine. It’s just a tool for me to do all that navdata work like AIP and charts and what not
other devs have the choice to make my work VERY complicated and believe they did and do but that’s part of the game. -
Ok first off……
I am not, like we have talked about, required to tell you when I add something new to the Balkans.
Secondly
I did not update the navaids until I asked you and then you got defensive with it.
Thirdly
When I was talking about the navaids, I was talking about all of it with regards to Casale airbase. I was giving you the opportunity to update your work with the new airbase. You are the one who got defensive because I never told you that I had to update stuff.
Fourth,
The FRAGS had to be added to the stations+ils.dat to work correctly with 4.34.1.
The data that was put into the stations+ils.dat is data anyone could get from anywhere and data I would have put in anyway. What is the difference if you put 315.30 verse me putting 315.30… because it came from your fingers verses mine…give me a break.
I’ve tried to make a very popular theater for the community when I could have made it for myself or select few people. BMS is a work from many people and people within the community are what keep it strong and trying to be competitive with DCS and keep people interested in it. People who complain because someone is using someone else’s work or someone who thinks the work that is being used is there work when in reality it is numerous people trying to keep it up to date with the most current version. I’m sorry the data is similar and the same in some spots but that is how the dice roll. I want the Balkans to be accurate as possible too. Nikos requested that his work be in the install. The stations+ils.dat file is part of the theater and will always be. The numbers thAt are in it are the same numbers I would have put into it. Just because I edited it and added the FRAG sections is me keeping the stations+ils.dat file up to date with the most recent build.
If the community does not want the Balkans theater because it incorporates numerous individuals stuff, then I don’t have to release it to the public and I’ll take it down.
Your attitude covers me.
Friends around can see this on you.
You react with no respect to my work and myself.
This theater at its specific state is NOT yours! Many guys before you offered great times to bring it as it was at the early of 2016 that you taken over!
And a last: Why don’t you create YOUR “stations+ils.dat” file and its specific NavAids pdf list to see what it takes as also how will be? Since this work as you say (The numbers thAt are in it are the same numbers I would have put into it) is so easy, why you have a so big problem to create yours?
You only inserted one new line for Rijeka airport, and learn that you have 3 wrongs there at the same 1 only line! You see it is a matter of simply numbers…
Too many friends here knows me and my work. I don’t need you to verify it.
I ALWAYS create MY work and from scratch! I always use my unique personal style.
And I NEVER steal other developers work, just by replacing their name showing great disrespect.
Nothing more to add.Nikos.
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@Red:
Guys, I suggest we all cool down.
It’s basically a matter between COugar and Nikos and we can all think what we want but it is irrelevantWe moderators are following and discussing the issue internally as well
few things we 'd regret are the fact that this is public when obviously it should have been dealt with internally. and the fact that credits seems to have been removed
and the fact that this will turn into a mess with other ppl input putting oil on the fire…I won’t say more till I get more inputs from other moderators, but we are just asking you guys not to make the situation worse with your own feelings for now.
No Nikos
I like to control the stations.dat file because it’s the base of all nav work and yes I am defensive about modifications, but I do not own the file. The file is owned by BMS
My work since you mention it is for the benefit of all BMS users and in that perspective I do not really care if it’s mine or called BMS ownership (charts)
(but devs know that as long as I am living i’ll continue working on these, and I have nothing to prove anymore )
But no, the station.dat file isn’t mine. It’s just a tool for me to do all that navdata work like AIP and charts and what notQuestion Red. I agree with you about ownership stuff, but if i create from scratch something for a 3rd party theater, or model etc etc, that work its not BMS property correct?
I.E: - For example Janhas work is not BMS property correct?
This is a very gray area. But indeed i agree that we should back off and let the devs and the people involved solve this one.
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I am confused ?
Are you talking about the same theater or different Balkan theaters ?
Just as a personal remark , I wonder how many people in the world used AFM files i created in order to derive their own AFM , without asking ….
Personally I don’t give a damn
we are talking about community modding here , I though everyone understood that simple fact.
Enjoy
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Question Red. I agree with you about ownership stuff, but if i create from scratch something for a 3rd party theater, or model etc etc, that work its not BMS property correct?
I.E: - For example Janhas work is not BMS property correct?
This is a very gray area. But indeed i agree that we should back off and let the devs and the people involved solve this one.It’s not grey at all. JH clearly said he was not interested, your alphajet work is not part of BMS, so you’re both owner of your own work,
In the case you create work FOR a third party theater, I would say it depends on what you agreed to with that entity.
It’s all gentlemen agreement in the end and respect of our volontary work. But sometimes we seem to have different point of view on that
Just like I guess this is the case on the matter at hand. -
I am confused ?
Are you talking about the same theater or different Balkan theaters ?
Just as a personal remark , I wonder how many people in the world used AFM files i created in order to derive their own AFM , without asking ….
Personally I don’t give a damn
we are talking about community modding here , I though everyone understood that simple fact.
Enjoy
Hi Mav. That question was addressed to me? Sorry
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@Red:
It’s not grey at all. JH clearly said he was not interested, your alphajet work is not part of BMS, so you’re both owner of your own work,
In the case you create work FOR a third party theater, I would say it depends on what you agreed to with that entity.
It’s all gentlemen agreement in the end and respect of our volontary work. But sometimes we seem to have different point of view on that
Just like I guess this is the case on the matter at hand.But alpha jet AFM uses data derived from the f16 AFM that I created , based on Nasa data etc etc etc …
Point is : everything WE do is based on somethings that other people do or did
This is what community means and the day you start thinking “it’s mine” is the day you leave the falcon4 development spirit
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Hi Mav. That question was addressed to me? Sorry
That was just an example my friend
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That was just an example my friend
no sweat
Yeah i mean was not my intent to say that all of our work is ours. Of course since F4 is around for so long that almost inevitably we will use sometight created by someone else.
Like Red said its all gentleman’s agreement in the end
The main point here is we don´t own the work but since we created at least credits and permission before porking around.
Not our specific case i guess (AFM or OFM files) since they are new files ( even if they are based n the original ones). Anyway i know at least that what i do i talk to the people before going crazy
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Your attitude covers me.
Friends around can see this on you.
You react with no respect to my work and myself.
This theater at its specific state is NOT yours! Many guys before you offered great times to bring it as it was at the early of 2016 that you taken over!
And a last: Why don’t you create YOUR “stations+ils.dat” file and its specific NavAids pdf list to see what it takes as also how will be? Since this work as you say (The numbers thAt are in it are the same numbers I would have put into it) is so easy, why you have a so big problem to create yours?
You only inserted one new line for Rijeka airport, and learn that you have 3 wrongs there at the same 1 only line! You see it is a matter of simply numbers…
Too many friends here knows me and my work. I don’t need you to verify it.
I ALWAYS create MY work and from scratch! I always use my unique personal style.
And I NEVER steal other developers work, just by replacing their name showing great disrespect.
Nothing more to add.Nikos.
Ok look Nikos,
For the sake of argument and to stop with the bickering….
What updates do you want to make to Casale? You know that when you request something to be edited with the terrain or frequencies etc…I usually do it. This bickering is pointless and does nothing but cause decention within the community which is not what is needed. You have the theater, you can look to see what updates are needed. I never said I would not update it with stuff you want. If you want to continue the bickering then I am cutting ties to this argument. If you want to make edits to the theater and send them to me, then I don’t have a problem with it. If you want to continue to bicker and whine about something that is easily updated then I have no use for your input.
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@Red:
Guys, I suggest we all cool down.
It’s basically a matter between COugar and Nikos and we can all think what we want but it is irrelevant…. this will turn into a mess with other ppl input putting oil on the fire…
I won’t say more till I get more inputs from other moderators, but we are just asking you guys not to make the situation worse with your own feelings for now.
…
It was made public and open for comment by Nikos. What did the think was going to happen?
He posted it to be validated and is now upset that not everyone is in 100% perfect agreement with him.
Moderators have the option to close or delete a thread if they don’t want the discussion to occur.
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IMO, public links are understood as “free to use and share”.
I think it’s the 80% of this community, sharing knowledge and a own work, for falcon.Cheers