SA-10 Killing me with no Missile Warning
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@Red:
And we haven’t started talking about Sa-20 …
How do they do it in real life then?Dont know about real life but here is how i deal with SA-20/21’s in CMANO:
-Triangulate them with HTS or other ESM
-SOJ by the growlers
-Saturate them with MALDs (36+ per battery)- At the same time launch JASSM’s that go NOE (12+)
If they take the bait and shoot the MALDs, its a peace of cake. The battery will have some point defenses like tonguska, tor etc but 12 jassms are enough to saturate them and hit the FCR of the main battery.
If they don’t take the bait (Tight ROE) then it will take many more stand off weapons to saturate them and destroy them.
Finally if the scenario designer doesn’t give me the tools i need, i use my f-16’s as JASSM’s :P. NOE all the way to 30-40 miles, pop up to 3-4kft and quickly dive down. Repeat a few times and they will waste most of their missiles. In the process of doing that, launch multiple HARM’s. -
Dont believe Lorik, he is french.
I’m in trouble because I watch all his YouTube videos!!!
WOW - and thanks for all the educational replies. I wish I could get a B-2 on that stinky 10, but unfortunately the 393rd (which was actually my first squadron when assigned to the AF - as an exec, not a pilot) is out of AG weapons currently.
https://fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclearweapons/russia_nukescurrent/sa10.html
I’ll refresh myself on TFR and give that a go, but honestly that changes my whole plan of using my 4 ship as a massive strike force on multiple high value stationary targets in the area, and report back. Maybe I’ll load the element up with HARMs to take on the SA3’s, or a couple of extra 120’s for those Migs.
Thanks all,
- bruzzer
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Than you god !! Someone understanding the whole picture
Ouch. MI = AI (MI was in Hungarian…)
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I’m in trouble because I watch all his YouTube videos!!!
WOW - and thanks for all the educational replies. I wish I could get a B-2 on that stinky 10, but unfortunately the 393rd (which was actually my first squadron when assigned to the AF - as an exec, not a pilot) is out of AG weapons currently.
https://fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclearweapons/russia_nukescurrent/sa10.html
I’ll refresh myself on TFR and give that a go, but honestly that changes my whole plan of using my 4 ship as a massive strike force on multiple high value stationary targets in the area, and report back. Maybe I’ll load the element up with HARMs to take on the SA3’s, or a couple of extra 120’s for those Migs.
Thanks all,
- bruzzer
Ah, then:
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Ah, then:
If those SA-10’s where properly defended by SHORADS, those tactics would prove quite suicidal.
EDIT: Modern SHORADS! (tonguskas, Pantsirs, Tor’s etc) -
@Master:
If those SA-10’s where properly defended by SHORADS, those tactics would prove quite suicidal.
EDIT: Modern SHORADS! (tonguskas, Pantsirs, Tor’s etc)Hence the obvious answer: if those SA-10 were properly defended by SHORADs, we wouldn’t use such tactics. Back to Red Dog’s remarks…
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This post is deleted! -
on russian air defence layering, in addition to the very interesting work by molni, a few interesting diagrams I found & translated when searching open source russian literature on IADS
here mostly applies to the aerospace air defence branch (PVO-PRO) ; the army air defence concept sports some differences but still of course makes great use of layering.
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You can find a ton of information on the organisation of vvs, pvo of all three branches and much else on the official university webpage here : http://files.mai.ru/site/unit/institute-of-military-science/tvvs/data/vvod.html. And if you want more, look at the list of literature, which you can easily pick up at flibusta
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You can find a ton of information on the organisation of vvs, pvo of all three branches and much else on the official university webpage here : http://files.mai.ru/site/unit/institute-of-military-science/tvvs/data/vvod.html. And if you want more, look at the list of literature, which you can easily pick up at flibusta
wow, I digged a lot but I can’t believe I missed this.
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Bonus for amusement: a textbook on basic tactics from 2014
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Hi
I revised some SAM battiolions from static to moveable and want to share my revised theater to other people.
Which files should i copy to send. I don’t want to copy all of theater files to send. It’s too large.
My purpose: some original theaters like EMF set both SA-20 and PAC-2 to static. it will make war game much more easy to locate those SAM battaries in the 2D map and i don’t want to show them up directly in the map.
Players need to make their own missions such as armed recon, Fire spying to locate those SAM threats in my campaign .
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Well guys, I guess you can’t win them all,
- Turns out there were no LANTIRN pods left, so I ended up doing a visual low level, at night, in the clouds…. but the practice TE and TE building practice was fun
- The SA-10 did not get me this time!
- The SA-3 that I didn’t like and thought “I should give him a little more room” did
- 2, 3, 4 were joker before ingress
ACMI attached. If anyone can help me spot the SA-10 in the file it would be appreciated.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e9a7ywfhq8eff2v/TAPE0019.vhs?dl=0
- bruzzer
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Fly almost at Mach 1 at 20.000ft with HARM / HTS. After entering below 30nm from SA-12, launch HARMS and immediately execute a half roll (180 degrees dive), hit the deck and run out of there like hell, releasing chaff until you exit the dangerous area.
Some times HARM miss, some times HARM gets the radar and other times you succeed in temporarily “silence” the Flap Lid Radar. This tactic is partly “Stand Off” because you enter in a high risk “Wild Weasel” style engagement with a couple of SA-12 missiles already coming your way at the moment that you release HARMS…
Another preferable method would be the use of AGM-158 JASSM as a “weapon of choice” against SA-12 that represents an Anti Access - Anti Denial (A2D) system IRL…
Two problems though:- You must have available the exact coordinates of the SAM site in order to target the radar
- Not sure how JASSM properly works in BMS 4,34
Any info or personal experience from using JAASM is welcome!
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JASSM seems to work, but it’s not usually available in campaign, at least from what I’ve seen. Also, IRL, a SA-10 would likely be able to shoot it down. In DCS it can even get JSOWs, not sure how realistic it is, but based on what I’ve read about it, it’s pretty likely the real thing can do that, as well.
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If you know it’s exact location beforehand, use SDBs (or JASSM if you have it). I actually did that in a campaign mission. I was lucky that the SA-10 was visible in 2D and went up to almost 40000ft and almost M0.95 and launched my SDBs.
I was inside the SA-10’s threat circle, but not much. If it decided to fire at me, it probably would have gotten me, but it usually doesn’t fire from so far away. The closest I got to the SA-10 was 40 nm.If you don’t know it’s exact location, you could try MITL. I never used them, but launching them at the approximate location and steering them to the exact position later sounds like a good concept.
If you don’t have MITL, look for terrain cover first. If you don’t have it, it’s pretty much suicide. You could still frag some flights in front of you as bait, so the SA-10 will engage them and leave the Flap Lid on.
If you have terrain cover, give one aircraft Mavs and the other HARMs. Use HTS to find the almost exact location of the FCR (by slewing the cursor over the HTS circle) and if you leave your cover and find the Flap Lid on, fire a HARM at it, if it’s off, search for it on the TGP and fire a Maverick at it.For the real thing and it’s ability to shoot down PGMs, one would probably have to oversaturate it. With stealth aircraft, it would be possible to fly in semi-close and launch SDBs. F-22/F-35 can only carry 8 of them each, but with a 4-ship it might be sufficient. Also, the B-2 is getting SDBs in the near future and will then be able to carry 216 (!) of them.
In the near future, the SPEAR 3 mini cruise missile could become an option too. 4 EF2000 with 16 missiles each would probably be more than enough. -
Our prime mission is not about SA-10. SA-10 is already outdated.
We are now facing SA-20
3-ships take out SA-20 with AGM-88 ( no HTS)
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Our prime mission is not about SA-10. SA-10 is already outdated.
We are now facing SA-20
3-ships take out SA-20 with AGM-88 ( no HTS)No offense, but I stopped watching after less than 1 minute, can’t stand the background noise…