SA-10 Killing me with no Missile Warning
-
@Red:
Something bugs me though
Since SA-10 have HOJ
Since you’ll be dead if you turn your own jammer on in BMS
Since A prowler, EF-111 or Growler closeby will protect you and allow you to overfly the Sa-10 battery without ANY threat in BMS
How come that Sa-10 can’t HOJ on the prowler, growler or EF-111 then ?HOJ is, if I’m not mistaken, mostly used against noise jamming. Electronic attack supporting aircraft (as well as fighters’ self protection jammers) don’t necessarily only employ noise jamming, which kind of is level 0 of jamming. But in public flight sims, we won’t find much else than noise jamming…
-
@Red:
Something bugs me though
Since SA-10 have HOJ
Since you’ll be dead if you turn your own jammer on in BMS
Since A prowler, EF-111 or Growler closeby will protect you and allow you to overfly the Sa-10 battery without ANY threat in BMS
How come that Sa-10 can’t HOJ on the prowler, growler or EF-111 then ?Maybe, maybe and …maybe - HOJ works if it can burn through the jamming. IF the a.c. that is jamming is actually doing it’s job (jamming) then the radar won’t get a lock. Now that’s a risk I wouldn’t like to take in a jamming plane of course!!!
-
@Red:
And we haven’t started talking about Sa-20 …
How do they do it in real life then?I disagree actually, the way to fight them is to task saturate them. No reason to remove them if they are modelled accurately.
We just need to adapt our tactics and make the IA more efficient doing what it takes so we are able to oversaturate themEven without these changes, in 4.34 we have standoff weapon quite able to destroy the Sa-10, realistic behaviour or not
-if you know their position (coordinates) SDB
-if you don’t know their coordinates: Delilah or MITLAre these real tactics? Probably not (except for the delilah)
Are these valid tactic? Yes they are.
Pilots will always find new ways to do their mission according to the tools they have. We BMS pilots do the same. In that aspect they are valid and working tactics.
There is no need to think that removing them would be the only solution… we can cope and we can adapt and we’re always smarter than AI driven by codeHuman pilots can adapt, but the ATO and MI controlled flights cannot. The current system is simply way to “unskilled” for this goal. As long as the S-300 are supported the Big Bird and Clam Shell they can down incoming larger CMs…
-
Human pilots can adapt, but the ATO and MI controlled flights cannot. The current system is simply way to “unskilled” for this goal. As long as the S-300 are supported the Big Bird and Clam Shell they can down incoming larger CMs…
Than you god !! Someone understanding the whole picture
-
but the ATO and MI controlled flights cannot.
We just need to adapt our tactics and make the IA more efficient doing what it takes
I actually said the same
-
I don’t talk about the AI because of the progress they’ve made in AA and because I love you but this is dead on
-
@Red:
And we haven’t started talking about Sa-20 …
How do they do it in real life then?Dont know about real life but here is how i deal with SA-20/21’s in CMANO:
-Triangulate them with HTS or other ESM
-SOJ by the growlers
-Saturate them with MALDs (36+ per battery)- At the same time launch JASSM’s that go NOE (12+)
If they take the bait and shoot the MALDs, its a peace of cake. The battery will have some point defenses like tonguska, tor etc but 12 jassms are enough to saturate them and hit the FCR of the main battery.
If they don’t take the bait (Tight ROE) then it will take many more stand off weapons to saturate them and destroy them.
Finally if the scenario designer doesn’t give me the tools i need, i use my f-16’s as JASSM’s :P. NOE all the way to 30-40 miles, pop up to 3-4kft and quickly dive down. Repeat a few times and they will waste most of their missiles. In the process of doing that, launch multiple HARM’s. -
Dont believe Lorik, he is french.
I’m in trouble because I watch all his YouTube videos!!!
WOW - and thanks for all the educational replies. I wish I could get a B-2 on that stinky 10, but unfortunately the 393rd (which was actually my first squadron when assigned to the AF - as an exec, not a pilot) is out of AG weapons currently.
https://fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclearweapons/russia_nukescurrent/sa10.html
I’ll refresh myself on TFR and give that a go, but honestly that changes my whole plan of using my 4 ship as a massive strike force on multiple high value stationary targets in the area, and report back. Maybe I’ll load the element up with HARMs to take on the SA3’s, or a couple of extra 120’s for those Migs.
Thanks all,
- bruzzer
-
Than you god !! Someone understanding the whole picture
Ouch. MI = AI (MI was in Hungarian…)
-
I’m in trouble because I watch all his YouTube videos!!!
WOW - and thanks for all the educational replies. I wish I could get a B-2 on that stinky 10, but unfortunately the 393rd (which was actually my first squadron when assigned to the AF - as an exec, not a pilot) is out of AG weapons currently.
https://fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclearweapons/russia_nukescurrent/sa10.html
I’ll refresh myself on TFR and give that a go, but honestly that changes my whole plan of using my 4 ship as a massive strike force on multiple high value stationary targets in the area, and report back. Maybe I’ll load the element up with HARMs to take on the SA3’s, or a couple of extra 120’s for those Migs.
Thanks all,
- bruzzer
Ah, then:
-
Ah, then:
If those SA-10’s where properly defended by SHORADS, those tactics would prove quite suicidal.
EDIT: Modern SHORADS! (tonguskas, Pantsirs, Tor’s etc) -
@Master:
If those SA-10’s where properly defended by SHORADS, those tactics would prove quite suicidal.
EDIT: Modern SHORADS! (tonguskas, Pantsirs, Tor’s etc)Hence the obvious answer: if those SA-10 were properly defended by SHORADs, we wouldn’t use such tactics. Back to Red Dog’s remarks…
-
This post is deleted! -
on russian air defence layering, in addition to the very interesting work by molni, a few interesting diagrams I found & translated when searching open source russian literature on IADS
here mostly applies to the aerospace air defence branch (PVO-PRO) ; the army air defence concept sports some differences but still of course makes great use of layering.
-
You can find a ton of information on the organisation of vvs, pvo of all three branches and much else on the official university webpage here : http://files.mai.ru/site/unit/institute-of-military-science/tvvs/data/vvod.html. And if you want more, look at the list of literature, which you can easily pick up at flibusta
-
You can find a ton of information on the organisation of vvs, pvo of all three branches and much else on the official university webpage here : http://files.mai.ru/site/unit/institute-of-military-science/tvvs/data/vvod.html. And if you want more, look at the list of literature, which you can easily pick up at flibusta
wow, I digged a lot but I can’t believe I missed this.
-
Bonus for amusement: a textbook on basic tactics from 2014
-
Hi
I revised some SAM battiolions from static to moveable and want to share my revised theater to other people.
Which files should i copy to send. I don’t want to copy all of theater files to send. It’s too large.
My purpose: some original theaters like EMF set both SA-20 and PAC-2 to static. it will make war game much more easy to locate those SAM battaries in the 2D map and i don’t want to show them up directly in the map.
Players need to make their own missions such as armed recon, Fire spying to locate those SAM threats in my campaign .
-
Well guys, I guess you can’t win them all,
- Turns out there were no LANTIRN pods left, so I ended up doing a visual low level, at night, in the clouds…. but the practice TE and TE building practice was fun
- The SA-10 did not get me this time!
- The SA-3 that I didn’t like and thought “I should give him a little more room” did
- 2, 3, 4 were joker before ingress
ACMI attached. If anyone can help me spot the SA-10 in the file it would be appreciated.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e9a7ywfhq8eff2v/TAPE0019.vhs?dl=0
- bruzzer
-
Fly almost at Mach 1 at 20.000ft with HARM / HTS. After entering below 30nm from SA-12, launch HARMS and immediately execute a half roll (180 degrees dive), hit the deck and run out of there like hell, releasing chaff until you exit the dangerous area.
Some times HARM miss, some times HARM gets the radar and other times you succeed in temporarily “silence” the Flap Lid Radar. This tactic is partly “Stand Off” because you enter in a high risk “Wild Weasel” style engagement with a couple of SA-12 missiles already coming your way at the moment that you release HARMS…
Another preferable method would be the use of AGM-158 JASSM as a “weapon of choice” against SA-12 that represents an Anti Access - Anti Denial (A2D) system IRL…
Two problems though:- You must have available the exact coordinates of the SAM site in order to target the radar
- Not sure how JASSM properly works in BMS 4,34
Any info or personal experience from using JAASM is welcome!