Hitting moving targets with CBU's in the middle of the night
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Ya! LGB definitely!
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1. Why are you not utilizing the TGP?
2. Would that type of BAI even be considered/realistic? Not sure but doubt it. Use a weapon more appropriate for the mission……AGM 65
What advantage would a TGP give me if I use CBU’s? I could probably identify a specific target and lock it but still not knowing which heading it is moving to calculate my flight path That being said, if the conclusion is that I should use Mavericks or LGB’s instead in this situation, I understand it. But by using cluster bombs I would normally have more hits when attacking columns I reckon.
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Or LGB.
CBU97 are not very effective in BMS. If you want use this kind of bomb, use Mk20D.
Could be of course that I’m just using the wrong kind of weapon. Still, I read that a lot of pilots here are using CBU’s in a very efficient way. Perhaps this only works in daylight and with good visibility?
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What advantage would a TGP give me if I use CBU’s? I could probably identify a specific target and lock it but still not knowing which heading it is moving to calculate my flight path That being said, if the conclusion is that I should use Mavericks or LGB’s instead in this situation, I understand it. But by using cluster bombs I would normally have more hits when attacking columns I reckon.
“Normally” is where the problem is and how you define it.
“IRL”: moving targets with dumb bombs is going to be a problem unless they are driving a straight road and unaware.
“Because they have bomblets” Yes, but the problem is hitting.
CBU choice: CBU87 are effective, for light targets.
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Could be of course that I’m just using the wrong kind of weapon. Still, I read that a lot of pilots here are using CBU’s in a very efficient way. Perhaps this only works in daylight and with good visibility?
CBU’s can be very efficient. Against stationary targets.
How do you lead a moving target in CCRP with dumb munitions? Can’t be done as far as I know. Certainly not with any consistency.
CCIP you might be able to get some hits by leading a column, but in your situation that’s not an option.
You are using the wrong weapon and/or tactic for the situation you’re describing.
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You don’t need to lock the TGP to drop dumb bombs where it is looking. The FCC is constantly showing you the solution to wherever the SOI is pointing regardless of whether or not a lock is achieved.
You can slew the TGP ahead of the column and estimate how far in front you need the bombs to hit and just fly the bomb fall line. I’m of course talking about CCRP. CCIP at night is just madness and shouldn’t be done unless you just love ground fire and shorads.
I wouldn’t try getting good at this in the campaign either. Make a TE and practice without affecting your campaign with early failures.
As said above. There are far better tactics than carpet bombing moving targets with dumbombs at night, but we all do things a little different.
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What advantage would a TGP give me if I use CBU’s?
I currently have quite good result with dumb bombs , when it comes to target some movers . But , as Stalker said , you need the TGP .
1: track your column with your ground radar (exactly the same way you did)
2: Turn on your TGP , slaved to the radar : now , you have a visual on the target .
3 : Aim with the TGP , a point located before the column ; you must analyse direction and speed of the vehicules targeted . Calculate in your mind the approximate time it will take for your bombs to hit the ground . At 10000ft , it should be smg like 15s . So , all you need is to anticipate the movement of the column to guess where it will be located in about 15s . Don’t aim directly at the target . That way , you will slaugther them with your CBU’s .With some training, I assure you nearly don’t need LGB’s anymore . You’ll just use them when you need to be 100% sure to destroy a very important target . It’s very cost efficient , and you’ll save your GBU’s (in campaign , you don’t have much of these , so you need to be careful with their use )
It’s like in a dogfight ; you don’t aim the enemy plane directly , or you’ll miss (except if you are in its 6’ , and assuming the enemy is level flying .)
I don’t know the word in english , but french call that “deflection shooting” ; same principle as launching a torpedo on a moving boat, or shooting someone who’s running …
-EDIT- oops , my answer came just after schnidrman !
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Given that you are attacking a column of targets and using a area weapon, you don’t want to target an individual vehicle - you want to target the centroid of the column and lead or lag that centroid depending on your attack geometry - you also have to pre-plan your attack to know just how your bomblet pattern will be distributed on the deck and be effective, object being to get them to drive into the pattern or at least be covered by part of it. It’s not as hard as one might think, but it does require some “Kentucky windage” no matter what release mode you choose.
I’d also drop pairs vise all four - that way you leave yourself an option for re-attack, once they presumably stop moving after the first attack.
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you want to target the centroid of the column
Yep . You must anticipate as described to have your bombs explode there .
The higher you fly , the most you have to anticipate .
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You don’t need to lock the TGP to drop dumb bombs where it is looking. The FCC is constantly showing you the solution to wherever the SOI is pointing regardless of whether or not a lock is achieved.
You can slew the TGP ahead of the column and estimate how far in front you need the bombs to hit and just fly the bomb fall line. I’m of course talking about CCRP. CCIP at night is just madness and shouldn’t be done unless you just love ground fire and shorads.
I wouldn’t try getting good at this in the campaign either. Make a TE and practice without affecting your campaign with early failures.
As said above. There are far better tactics than carpet bombing moving targets with dumbombs at night, but we all do things a little different.
I understand the principles. Still, how do I line myself up with the column? Like I said, the moment you can individually see the targets that form the column on the GMT map by using the zoom option you are already too close to it. In what way can the TGP help me to detemine the path I need to fly? Perhaps it’s still doable in case of daylight and good visibility but in my case I have to “go around” and make a second run. But by then I find it very hard to determine when to turn to make a perfect run.
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Still, how do I line myself up with the column?
You don’t have to line up with the column if you use your TGP .
All you need is to determine : where is the point of the column you are aiming(Stevie’s centroid) + where and when(according to your altitude) you should drop your bomb according to the vehicules movements(deflection). No need to complicate the thing more than that , unless you have a very good reason (mountains , enemy SAM area near to you , incoming enemy fighters and whatever …)
the moment you can individually see the targets that form the column on the GMT map by using the zoom option you are already too close to it
That’s why TGP is useful : you dont have to use the GMT , once you have a visual on the target . Use your GMT only to spot the column at long range . Then , use the TGP . You’ll have plenty of time . If you have to make a 2nd pass , the column will still be locked by the Ground Radar , so it will be very easy to find the column .
Then , TGP, aiming , deflection , shoot , Baaam .
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You don’t have to line up with the column if you use your TGP .
All you need is to determine : where is the point of the column you are aiming(Stevie’s centroid) + where and when(according to your altitude) you should drop your bomb according to the vehicules movements. no need to complicate the thing more than that , unless you have a very good reason (mountains , enemy SAM area near to you , incoming enemy fighters and whatever …)
OK, so you’re talking about dropping a single bomb? I was referring to carpet bombing in that I ripple 4 pieces right after each other. The reason for that is that I want to be less vulnerable to AAA and SAMS by making a run only once. In that case you need a straight line and have to line up. But I will give it a try, thanks!
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Ahh , I see you are a greedy/gourmand fighter .
It’s all about the pilot tactics. All depends on what you want to do . If you are practicing , yeah , take your time and line up and destroy them all . Rippling is a good solution to cover the area .
But in operationnal conditions, it’s not that simple , especially if you fight on the Red side : you won’t have the time to destroy the entire column in most cases : enemy fighters are BARCAPing and will shoot you down(very likely , try with against the Israelians and you’ll understand what I mean…). Enemy Sam can go active and shoot you down …; etc …
You need to act very quickly , then, fly away as fast as you can …
But if you can manage to line up with the column during the approach(meaning : if you have enough time before the enemy counterstrikes) , it’s all good .
It’s a matter of luck , and SA .
In that case you need a straight line and have to line up
keep the radar unzoomed at the point you always can see the entire column . No need to zoom more than that (dbs2 : no need). All you want is to see the line of vehicules , so it will be good enough to prepare your lineup . Then , strike as advised . And don’t forget the vehicules can turn , or even stop or do a 180° … So maybe line up isn’t so important after all , don’t you think ? The most important is to strike , destroy quickly smg , then return home safe … It’s a Red pilot point of view
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OK, so you’re talking about dropping a single bomb? I was referring to carpet bombing in that I ripple 4 pieces right after each other. The reason for that is that I want to be less vulnerable to AAA and SAMS by making a run only once. In that case you need a straight line and have to line up. But I will give it a try, thanks!
You really need to do some attack planning - the opening height of the CBU directly affects the bomblet density on the deck - just like range affects a shotgun blast. There will be a minimum opening altitude required to effect the required amount of damage to destroy your target - simply adding CBUs to the string will get you a bigger pattern, but not necessarily a more effective one. Which is another reason you don’t really want to drop to Winchester on the first pass. Pairs are about optimum.
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just like range affects a shotgun blast
A shotgun loaded with buckshot , 100% true ;
Maybe you should try to bomb lower than 10000ft . To be honest , I only use my CBU’s when doing High Speed/Low Alt penetration , much nearer of 300ft than 10000 …
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A shotgun loaded with buckshot , 100% true ;
Maybe you should try to bomb lower than 10000ft . To be honest , I only use my CBU’s when doing High Speed/Low Alt penetration , much nearer of 300ft than 10000 …
That’s not how we did it when I was weaponeering for RL Harriers…plus in RL there’s some fusing options to consider. 300ft is WAY too low…WAY-WAY.
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Haha !
That’s not how we did it when I was weaponeering for RL Harriers…plus in RL there’s some fusing options to consider. 300ft is WAY too low…WAY-WAY.
Flying that low is one of the only solution if you want to stay alive , flying Reds against Israel (ITO , Syrian Side , Su 24) . 300ft is nearly not low enough to avoid to be shot down for them(the Reds) !!! You must avoid to being detected(by ground radar I mean) , it’s not an option for them . So , you have to fly VERY low .
that why I was talking about operationnal conditions : it’s not always possible to fly and bomb at 10000ft , and again more to fly at 10000ft , then lineup and bomb (needless to speak of the fact of doing this AT NIGHT ) . Basically , my 1st goal is to survive , then drop my bombs , then survive again …
On the Blue side , it’s way much easier to follow fixed procedures , even in campaign . On the Red side … You often have to be quite creative if you want to last more than 2 sorties …
But don’t worry, while I’m doing the penetration at 300ft(generaly 100 or 150 ft , as I’m really afraid of Western SAMs and Radars), I pull on the stick when at about 9-10 nm to gain some hundreds feets , just the time for me to aim , shoot and destroy .
Then , I flee before the Cavalery comes in , full aft and 150 ft as long as I’m in dangerous area . This tactic saved my virtual pilot life many times , and yesterday again (I was locked on by an F-16 radar 5 s before launching my Mk 84 Air on Hermon Radar station, as I gained some alt in the final run , at about 1000ft max . I bomb it anyway , then full aft at very very very low alt while doing some hard turn , throwing chaffs and whatever I had under my hand… I fled again . It now my 5th sorties, and I’m still alive)
However , I would be very interested to know which tactics were used by the Harriers sqn you were working for . It could inspire me .
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This is an area where comparing RL and BMS in terms of simulation and in terms of benefit/risk, could be a deception.
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Haha !
Flying that low is one of the only solution if you want to stay alive , flying Reds against Israel (ITO , Syrian Side , Su 24) . 300ft is nearly not low enough to avoid to be shot down for them !!! You must avoid to being detected , it’s not an option for them . So , you have to fly VERY low .
that why I was talking about operationnal conditions : it’s not always possible to fly and bomb at 10000ft , and again more to fly at 10000ft , then lineup and bomb (needless to speak of the fact of doing this AT NIGHT ) . Basically , my 1st goal is to survive , then drop my bombs , then survive again …
On the blue side , it’s way much easier to follow fixed procedures , even in campaign . On the Red side … You often have to be quite creative if you want to last more than 2 sorties …
But don’t worry, while I’m doing the penetration at 300ft(generaly 100 or 150 ft , as I’m really afraid of Western SAM and Radar), I pull on the stick when at about 9-10 nm to gain some hundreds feets , just the time for me to aim , shoot and destroy . Then , I flee before the Cavalery comes in
However , I would be very interested to know which tactics were used by the Harriers sqn you were working for . It could inspire me .
Flying low is a way to a quick death…I could take you out with a .50 cal at that altitude. And you have to give the canister time to open…from 300’…it ain’t gonna go well. At all.
Back in the day, they used to rage around at 200’ AGL…they don’t do that anymore - there is FAR too much threat from ground fire (and that includes small arms and not just MANPADs). Things tend to higher altitudes these days…and precision weapons.
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This is an area where comparing RL and BMS in terms of simulation and in terms of benefit/risk, could be a deception.
This is the only reason I fly BMS…