Are backseaters pilots?
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@Atlas excellent question and excellent aswers guys! I learn a lot!
Greetings from Brazil
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Ii think it’s different between the USAF and the USN - I know a LOT of USN Aviators, and Navy back seaters are not pilot qual’d though very knowledgable. The Navy issues two differing sets of wings to make the distinction - and it really is two different jobs. Also, the Navy does not put a stick in the aft cockpit of fighter/attack aircraft…the USAF does.
However - I also have a friend that recently completed USAF flight training and is now a B-1 crewman. While not formally a B-1 pilot, I think he did earn USAF pilot wings upon completing his flight training. Again, I have a feeling that this has to do with USAF fighters aircraft having dual controls…for the most part.
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I guess I should’ve expected an “it depends” answer, LOL!
I’ve also heard and can understand/appreciate the fact that RIOs dictate aircraft positioning BVR as they have a clearer “picture” of where everyone is, but WVR or in a dogfight, he’s really more like an extra pair of eyes to look for the enemy or to clear the six, right? He may have a little idea of tactics, but this is more the territory of the front-seater, correct?
I also suppose that while a backseater can probably fly the aircraft (ie, sit up front), this isn’t really done on a regular basis? And I suppose the front-seater will be totally (or mostly) twiddling his thumbs when he’s in the back seat?
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@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
I also suppose that while a backseater can probably fly the aircraft (ie, sit up front), this isn’t really done on a regular basis? And I suppose the front-seater will be totally (or mostly) twiddling his thumbs when he’s in the back seat?
To clarify, a WSO will never be sitting in the front, they might get to fly the aircraft using the controls in the back, but they aren’t going to be swapping cockpits.
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@SOBO-87 - Operational Hornets for one do not have flight controls in the aft cockpit…neither did Navy F-4s…or F-14s…and I’m not really sure why this is, or when it started. But there is only ONE guy in a Navy strike fighter aircraft that can fly the aircraft and that is the pilot. In the front seat.
There are Trainer configurations with dual controls for Hornets, but not many are kept in that configuration. And T-45s have dual controls…for the Instructors. But T-45s don’t deploy.
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@Stevie yes, that’s why I qualified my original statement with “ in aircraft that have rear seat controls”.
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@Supernova said in Are backseaters pilots?:
So - realistically - whilst in flight, the backseater COULD open the canopy, and lean out to the side to look forward; much as a steam-train driver might…?
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@SOBO-87 - ahh…missed that - mea culpa!
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@Atlas (and all the other Gentlemen as well):
True all what stated above, of course.
But I seemed that another particular back/side seat pilots task could have not mentioned, if not forgotten.
In some aircrafts (F-4G, Tornados!), WSO pilots had been tasked to manage as well their RWR/ECR/countermeasures systems, of particular complexity and effective nowadays, given that they are still highly classified.
No nuts, here: please only think to what a Tornado ECR can do to SAM battalions - no offense to any Viper SEAD equipped craft meant.Just for precision’s sake and nothing else.
With best regards.
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@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
No offense meant to anyone, but are RIOs/WSOs pilots? Do they have any flight training?
I think it was Dan Hampton’s book where he said something like he wouldn’t listen to a backseater but he would listen to the guy in front. I might be wrong, it’s been a good few years since I read that book, but I’ve always had this in the back of my mind. One of my pals just showed me a video of Ward Carroll making statements about flying the Tomcat and tactics and such but I thought backseaters don’t have aircraft control? Unless in a trainer aircraft, of course.
Always happy to be proven wrong and educated on these matters.
Dan Hampton is just a stupid moron who think he is superman.
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@Jackal - another thing to consider is what these guys are actually called around the world. I encounter “WSO” - Weapons Systems Operator/Officer - as a Navy rate, and it means something very specific to me in that context. The Navy used to call these guys “RIO” in the F-14 days - Radar Intercept Officer. And the back/side seaters in Growlers/Prowlers are referred to as “ECMO” - Electronic Countermeasures Officer. …though I think in a Prowler one of them is a “BN” - Bomber/Navigator - and two are ECMOs? I think…
I’d be interested to hear what they are specifically called on other Platforms and in other Services around the world, if anyone knows any differences/similarities!
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@Aragorn said in Are backseaters pilots?:
So - realistically - whilst in flight, the backseater COULD open the canopy?
…Especially at 3,000 km/h. But seriously, without a forward view, you can fly and even land a aircraft. There are displays with a marked path, but a blind landing… I’m not sure that backseaters are taught it. But if you pray,
you can land successfullyyou’ll crash, die, and go to heaven: it wasn’t a wasted prayer (otherwise you would have gone to hell!). In fact, it’s more likely that if forward pilot has a heart attack (or whatever it is), you pull the nice red handle between your legs, which… But that’s another story. -
@Dee-Jay said in Are backseaters pilots?:
Dan Hampton is just a stupid moron who think he is superman.
I thought a little bit of (or a lot!!) ego is a requirement for the job.
I guess what really prompted me to start this thread was a few of Ward’s video and wondering if he’s really qualified to be making certain statements.
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@Supernova That’s the nice thing about the F-15E, The WSO can bring up the HUD repeater on one of the screens and it has both normal camera and FLIR forward view that the hud symbology is overlayed ontop of. Apparently its quite possibly to fly approach using it.
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@Atlas - his bio is actually pretty impressive, if this is him:
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Hello,
In my country there is two branches.
The first one are pilots who failed pilot’s training and become WSO. So, they have basic pilot training, some of them may have even fail during fighter aircraft OCU and prefer to be WSO on fighter aircraft than transport pilot or basic flight instructor.
Some others which is the majority in my country go directly to WSO school after ground pilot training, usually ATPL ( they don’t need to pass all of the 14 exams). Except if they have private pilot licence they don’t need to pilot, and if pilot get blackout, procedure is ejection because it’s the safest way to save everybody.
Radium
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@Dee-Jay said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
No offense meant to anyone, but are RIOs/WSOs pilots? Do they have any flight training?
I think it was Dan Hampton’s book where he said something like he wouldn’t listen to a backseater but he would listen to the guy in front. I might be wrong, it’s been a good few years since I read that book, but I’ve always had this in the back of my mind. One of my pals just showed me a video of Ward Carroll making statements about flying the Tomcat and tactics and such but I thought backseaters don’t have aircraft control? Unless in a trainer aircraft, of course.
Always happy to be proven wrong and educated on these matters.
Dan Hampton is just a stupid moron who think he is superman.
Sadly such kind of strange form of life is spreaded all over the world.
The worst they are, more they “write” “books”, “manuals” (if those are truly theirs) and so on.
In your profession especially. In mine that’s just so.
But you knew it already until too well, didn’t you?With best regards.
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Hello,
Being a good fighter pilot doesn’t mean being able to have a capacity to build concepts and anticipating what’s next. It’s the same with many technical topics.
From my experience in real life, there is indeed many missions that couldn’t be achieved without a WSO, period.
First, Dan Hampton was a F-16 pilot. F-16 itself is very capable for most missions, but is never the best one. Dan Hampton was a SEAD pilot, mostly, which is a very, very tiny portion of the missions that a fighter pilot may have to do in his or her career. I don’t mean that he never performed air combat or striking missions, but it wasn’t his main job.
Second, in my country, we have a strong WSO culture. What is funny is that Naval Aviation use the same core aircraft than the Air Force, but they only have single seaters for some pride reason : they never accepted that a non pilot may lead a pilot, which is often the case in the Air Force. Therefore, experience proved that they can’t perform the same missions than the airforce with two seaters, including a WSO, because they only have one brain.
It’s indeed impossible to perform a dark night zero visibility very low level < 150ft and very high velocity > 550kt deep strike mission with only 1 person aboard, especially if this kind of mission profile repeats 5 times, for a 9 hours mission, with 7 night air refuels.
To keep the best awarness, you need two brains to safely achieve the mission you are tasked for. It’s not a matter of technology, it’s a matter or human brain, because being a fighter pilot is not more than 1% about pression buttons, not more than 3% of stick handling, not more than 1% about avionics, but 95% about decisions making.
F-16, F-35 are not aircraft designed to conduct high intensity missions: They are aircraft design to impose a huge air supremacy, in a dissuasive way.
This is what SEAD is made for : forcing the enemy to switch their early warning radars off as much as possible, and sometimes, when one is on, one missile launched by a pilot like Dan Hampton destroys a site, whatever it is.
A-6E, Mirage 2000D, Rafale B, F-15E, F-111, Tornado all conducted missions that no F-16 or F-35 would be ever capable to do.
Being a pilot, who flew fighter aircraft in my life, I can tell without a glimpse of hesitation than WSO are strongly needed and have a decisive place in modern combat aviation.
Best regards,
Radium
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@Stevie Yep, that’s the one.
@Radium thanks for your input. It seems like WSOs are essential in some A-G roles but then not so much on an A-A or air superiority role? Is that correct? So kind of like you have a CP/G and a Pilot in something like an Apache? The case being flying so close to the ground is so task intensive that it’s better to have “two brains” as you say rather than just one?
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