Are backseaters pilots?
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No offense meant to anyone, but are RIOs/WSOs pilots? Do they have any flight training?
I think it was Dan Hampton’s book where he said something like he wouldn’t listen to a backseater but he would listen to the guy in front. I might be wrong, it’s been a good few years since I read that book, but I’ve always had this in the back of my mind. One of my pals just showed me a video of Ward Carroll making statements about flying the Tomcat and tactics and such but I thought backseaters don’t have aircraft control? Unless in a trainer aircraft, of course.
Always happy to be proven wrong and educated on these matters.
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@Atlas I think the answer is “sometimes”, “it depends”, or “it’s complicated”.
Wikipedia actually has a lot to say about the career paths and distinction between pilots and wizzos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_flight_officer#Comparison_with_naval_aviators
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@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
No offense meant to anyone, but are RIOs/WSOs pilots? Do they have any flight training?
I think it was Dan Hampton’s book where he said something like he wouldn’t listen to a backseater but he would listen to the guy in front. I might be wrong, it’s been a good few years since I read that book, but I’ve always had this in the back of my mind. One of my pals just showed me a video of Ward Carroll making statements about flying the Tomcat and tactics and such but I thought backseaters don’t have aircraft control? Unless in a trainer aircraft, of course.
Always happy to be proven wrong and educated on these matters.
It strongly depends, yes. In helicopters, you can have backseaters systematically being the actual on-board commanders and former frontseaters.
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@Atlas
Well, it depends on the plane. Some ACs have navigators who can’t fly the jet simply because they don’t have a handle. The flight training of these guys depends on the country. I can speak for Russia, the navigators there can fly. And even land the plane, but only if they’re very lucky.
Although some planes are just very “fun” to fly from the back seat. I mean the MiG-31. I guess the view from there is not very good.
If the navigator sees anything there at all up front. -
Officially WSOs are not pilots. But they will have received basic flying training so will definitely understand what the pilot is doing.
In reality, in aircraft that have rear seat controls, The F-15E Strike Eagle being a prime example, the WSO will get opportunities to fly the jet if only to give the pilot a break while they’re filling a piddle pack etc. I personally know an F-15E WSO who has flown formation, tanked and landed the jet from the back. But that came from becoming a trusted pair of hands over years in the jet.
There have been a couple of occasions of Spacial Disorientation at night in the Strike Eagle where the rear seater has grabbed the stick and saved both their lives, so having controls in the back and somebody who vaguely knows how to use them is definitely an advantage.
Your point about Ward Carol: The RIO in the back of the Tomcat didn’t have flight controls. But the RIO is intimately involved in tactics and how the aircraft is deployed during an engagement (specially BVR) because he is the one running the weapon systems and radar, he needs to know exactly what the pilot is going to do.
He also understands the aircraft, it’s performance, and tactics used to maximise its advantage in a WVR dogfight environment because he will have sat through all the same briefings that the pilot has, and been in the back seat during the exact same similar and then dissimilar combat exercises that a pilot has. He may not technically be a pilot, but he’s sure a naval aviator and I’d happily listen to what he has to say on how to fly the F-14 to its maximum potential.
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@Atlas excellent question and excellent aswers guys! I learn a lot!
Greetings from Brazil
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Ii think it’s different between the USAF and the USN - I know a LOT of USN Aviators, and Navy back seaters are not pilot qual’d though very knowledgable. The Navy issues two differing sets of wings to make the distinction - and it really is two different jobs. Also, the Navy does not put a stick in the aft cockpit of fighter/attack aircraft…the USAF does.
However - I also have a friend that recently completed USAF flight training and is now a B-1 crewman. While not formally a B-1 pilot, I think he did earn USAF pilot wings upon completing his flight training. Again, I have a feeling that this has to do with USAF fighters aircraft having dual controls…for the most part.
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I guess I should’ve expected an “it depends” answer, LOL!
I’ve also heard and can understand/appreciate the fact that RIOs dictate aircraft positioning BVR as they have a clearer “picture” of where everyone is, but WVR or in a dogfight, he’s really more like an extra pair of eyes to look for the enemy or to clear the six, right? He may have a little idea of tactics, but this is more the territory of the front-seater, correct?
I also suppose that while a backseater can probably fly the aircraft (ie, sit up front), this isn’t really done on a regular basis? And I suppose the front-seater will be totally (or mostly) twiddling his thumbs when he’s in the back seat?
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@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
I also suppose that while a backseater can probably fly the aircraft (ie, sit up front), this isn’t really done on a regular basis? And I suppose the front-seater will be totally (or mostly) twiddling his thumbs when he’s in the back seat?
To clarify, a WSO will never be sitting in the front, they might get to fly the aircraft using the controls in the back, but they aren’t going to be swapping cockpits.
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@SOBO-87 - Operational Hornets for one do not have flight controls in the aft cockpit…neither did Navy F-4s…or F-14s…and I’m not really sure why this is, or when it started. But there is only ONE guy in a Navy strike fighter aircraft that can fly the aircraft and that is the pilot. In the front seat.
There are Trainer configurations with dual controls for Hornets, but not many are kept in that configuration. And T-45s have dual controls…for the Instructors. But T-45s don’t deploy.
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@Stevie yes, that’s why I qualified my original statement with “ in aircraft that have rear seat controls”.
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@Supernova said in Are backseaters pilots?:
So - realistically - whilst in flight, the backseater COULD open the canopy, and lean out to the side to look forward; much as a steam-train driver might…?
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@SOBO-87 - ahh…missed that - mea culpa!
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@Atlas (and all the other Gentlemen as well):
True all what stated above, of course.
But I seemed that another particular back/side seat pilots task could have not mentioned, if not forgotten.
In some aircrafts (F-4G, Tornados!), WSO pilots had been tasked to manage as well their RWR/ECR/countermeasures systems, of particular complexity and effective nowadays, given that they are still highly classified.
No nuts, here: please only think to what a Tornado ECR can do to SAM battalions - no offense to any Viper SEAD equipped craft meant.Just for precision’s sake and nothing else.
With best regards.
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@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
No offense meant to anyone, but are RIOs/WSOs pilots? Do they have any flight training?
I think it was Dan Hampton’s book where he said something like he wouldn’t listen to a backseater but he would listen to the guy in front. I might be wrong, it’s been a good few years since I read that book, but I’ve always had this in the back of my mind. One of my pals just showed me a video of Ward Carroll making statements about flying the Tomcat and tactics and such but I thought backseaters don’t have aircraft control? Unless in a trainer aircraft, of course.
Always happy to be proven wrong and educated on these matters.
Dan Hampton is just a stupid moron who think he is superman.
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@Jackal - another thing to consider is what these guys are actually called around the world. I encounter “WSO” - Weapons Systems Operator/Officer - as a Navy rate, and it means something very specific to me in that context. The Navy used to call these guys “RIO” in the F-14 days - Radar Intercept Officer. And the back/side seaters in Growlers/Prowlers are referred to as “ECMO” - Electronic Countermeasures Officer. …though I think in a Prowler one of them is a “BN” - Bomber/Navigator - and two are ECMOs? I think…
I’d be interested to hear what they are specifically called on other Platforms and in other Services around the world, if anyone knows any differences/similarities!
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@Aragorn said in Are backseaters pilots?:
So - realistically - whilst in flight, the backseater COULD open the canopy?
…Especially at 3,000 km/h. But seriously, without a forward view, you can fly and even land a aircraft. There are displays with a marked path, but a blind landing… I’m not sure that backseaters are taught it. But if you pray,
you can land successfullyyou’ll crash, die, and go to heaven: it wasn’t a wasted prayer (otherwise you would have gone to hell!). In fact, it’s more likely that if forward pilot has a heart attack (or whatever it is), you pull the nice red handle between your legs, which… But that’s another story. -
@Dee-Jay said in Are backseaters pilots?:
Dan Hampton is just a stupid moron who think he is superman.
I thought a little bit of (or a lot!!) ego is a requirement for the job.
I guess what really prompted me to start this thread was a few of Ward’s video and wondering if he’s really qualified to be making certain statements.
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@Supernova That’s the nice thing about the F-15E, The WSO can bring up the HUD repeater on one of the screens and it has both normal camera and FLIR forward view that the hud symbology is overlayed ontop of. Apparently its quite possibly to fly approach using it.
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@Atlas - his bio is actually pretty impressive, if this is him: