Start sequence order by tower
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The towers in Balkans theater do not adhere to the Start sequence witch ist predefined by ordered take off times. As a result, the AI wingman do not come along if you stick to the planned start times.
Is it possible to fix that? -
@Prot Interesting. I have not seen that problem in Balkans. More detail?
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Don’t move until you have told ground control that you are ready to taxi and then don’t move until they tell you to - ignore the times on the TO schedule, the AI’s taking off ahead of you may not be responding to GC - sit tight and wait for instructions - once given by CG the your AI’s will follow you.
Ironman
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@Prot said in Start sequence order by tower:
The towers in Balkans theater do not adhere to the Start sequence witch ist predefined by ordered take off times. As a result, the AI wingman do not come along if you stick to the planned start times.
Is it possible to fix that?The tower has authority on the traffic whatever hour is written on your flightplan .
Abide tower (ground) instruction and you and your AIs will be perfectly fine
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Thats not really the way to go guys. A lot of missions are planned with timing for Redfor showing up etc etc, when Tower always delays you 10 minutes, the system definitely does not work as intended. In Korea its working like a charm.
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@Mav-jp said in Start sequence order by tower:
The tower has authority on the traffic whatever hour is written on your flightplan .
Thats the reality in a game. In real life is the tower a service and the task of the tower crew is to get the a/c as punctual as possible in the air. I thought BMS is a simulatuion…
Abide tower (ground) instruction and you and your AIs will be perfectly fine
That is not true. When I fly with an AI wingman, he orients hisself on the tower commands not on my behavior.@Icarus
Example:
My t/o time on schedule: 10:00
2. flight: 10:02
3. flight: 10:04
4. flight: 10:06
I was asking for taxi at 09:53, got the info from ground: “Stand by, you’re number 4 for departure, your t/o time is 10:14.” I was asking again, nearly same answer. Then I was ignoring the ground controller order, I had to be at time in the FAOR. The opponent ist not waiting.
Result: My AI wingman was waiting and never shows up in the air.edit: typos
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Thats the reality in a game. In real life is the tower a service and the task of the tower crew is to get the a/c as punctual as possible in the air. I thought BMS is a simulatuion…]
In real life ATC has the power to delay you and will absolute do delay you if ATC sees a reason to do so. It’s main task is to maintain a safe environment, not get everyone on time. They will see that they can get you in the air as quick as possible within safe limits, but they won’t try to get you on your planned time in the air.
The pilot looks that he is ready within the in the flight plan defined T/O time. After that, it’s up to the ATC if you can go early, on time or later.
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Sometimes ATC has it own way and switches two flights for no obvious reasons. I’d even say it almost does so systematically when I plan 2 human flights 2 minutes apart . ATC’s sense of party sometimes exceeds mine. I can live with it. ATC does live with me :).
EDIT: spelling
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@Prot said in Start sequence order by tower:
My t/o time on schedule: 10:00
2. flight: 10:02
3. flight: 10:04
4. flight: 10:06
I was asking for taxi at 09:53, got the info from ground: “Stand by, you’re number 4 for departure, your t/o time is 10:14.” I was asking again, nearly same answer.I have never heard them give a takeoff time for departure, pretty cool if that is something new. I couldn’t help but wonder if two-minute intervals is too tight for the AI and ATC to handle ? Mav-jp would know I suppose
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@jayb said in Start sequence order by tower:
@Prot said in Start sequence order by tower:
My t/o time on schedule: 10:00
2. flight: 10:02
3. flight: 10:04
4. flight: 10:06
I was asking for taxi at 09:53, got the info from ground: “Stand by, you’re number 4 for departure, your t/o time is 10:14.” I was asking again, nearly same answer.I have never heard them give a takeoff time for departure, pretty cool if that is something new. I couldn’t help but wonder if two-minute intervals is too tight for the AI and ATC to handle ? Mav-jp would know I suppose
Hi,
I can confirm you do sometimes get advised of your expected departure time. Can’t recall how to reproduce but I had wondered about this - messed with the TE function and did manage to hear this call. (not sure about Campaign though)
Regards,
Gary
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@razo said in Start sequence order by tower:
Thats the reality in a game. In real life is the tower a service and the task of the tower crew is to get the a/c as punctual as possible in the air. I thought BMS is a simulatuion…]
In real life ATC has the power to delay you and will absolute do delay you if ATC sees a reason to do so. It’s main task is to maintain a safe environment, not get everyone on time. They will see that they can get you in the air as quick as possible within safe limits, but they won’t try to get you on your planned time in the air.
The pilot looks that he is ready within the in the flight plan defined T/O time. After that, it’s up to the ATC if you can go early, on time or later.
This! ATC delays are a real life issue even, or especially so, in war. I get that @prot and @Korbi are apparently trying to meet up with human players at a manageable TOT, but you are basically breaking the rules and being disappointed that your AI isn’t doing it either when the rest of the time we want them to do exactly what they are supposed to. Are you guys using campaign or TEs? If campaign what day and user managed ATO? What airbases?
I would also say that even the Balkans as the next “most official” theater after KTO, it still has issues like the other non-KTO with things like parking locations causing a back up in taxi times. This seems key a lot of time and I don’t know if it’s more on the theater developers to do more airbase design so that the taxi areas become less congested or the TE designers/ATO management on Campaign to reduce airport congestion to limit this issue that I see in other theaters like Balkans, MidEast 128, etc. A lot of times picking the airbases with a lower number of squadrons at it is better for this reason.
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In real life ATC has the power to delay you and will absolute do delay you if ATC sees a reason to do so. It’s main task is to maintain a safe environment, not get everyone on time. They will see that they can get you in the air as quick as possible within safe limits, but they won’t try to get you on your planned time in the air.
The pilot looks that he is ready within the in the flight plan defined T/O time. After that, it’s up to the ATC if you can go early, on time or later.
In real life has the commander of the wing/squadron the power. The planning of take of sequence is dictated by the task. Yes, the task of the tower is to get the flights safe into the air and back down. But that doesn’t mean the tower can change the commander’s plan for no reason.
The environment was safe, there was no reason mix up the take off sequence. -
@jayb
Sorry, it was not the take off time, it was the taxy time given by ground. -
You need to abide to ATC instructions, this is in BMS like in real life.
Break the ATC rules and Airbases will be a mess.
In real you would loose your licence
As far as the argument is " the ennemy does not wait’", this is incorrect
The ATO is planning all packages with sufficient time at the holding point to regroup and be on time even with a 8 mn late on take off. it has been design that way.
(not to mention that Red AIrbases need to manage crowded traffic as well )
If airbases are too crowded and the ATC fails to respect a reasonnable time to take off, it means there are too many squadrons places on the same airbase by the Campaign developper
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@Prot said in Start sequence order by tower:
In real life ATC has the power to delay you and will absolute do delay you if ATC sees a reason to do so. It’s main task is to maintain a safe environment, not get everyone on time. They will see that they can get you in the air as quick as possible within safe limits, but they won’t try to get you on your planned time in the air.
The pilot looks that he is ready within the in the flight plan defined T/O time. After that, it’s up to the ATC if you can go early, on time or later.
In real life has the commander of the wing/squadron the power. The planning of take of sequence is dictated by the task. Yes, the task of the tower is to get the flights safe into the air and back down. But that doesn’t mean the tower can change the commander’s plan for no reason.
The environment was safe, there was no reason mix up the take off sequence.you tend to forget that ATC has to manage landing aircrafts as well, especially on single runway airbases.
In real if flights have to land with no more fuel, landings will be prioritized and Take off delays or missions aborted
The Campaign designer needs to manager a proper number of squadrons depending on the Single or Twin runway airbase capability in heavy campaign environment
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I agree with MAV-jp, this is RL, this is BMS.
I am sure RL pilots cope with this ok …
If you want to fly Camps this is what happens, some of the time, unless you use MC to clear out all the other squads from the AB - not very realistic.
If you don’t want to wait generate a TE and put yourself first in the queue.
I like it just the way it is - but that’s just my opinion.
Ironman
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@Prot said in Start sequence order by tower:
In real life has the commander of the wing/squadron the power. The planning of take of sequence is dictated by the task. Yes, the task of the tower is to get the flights safe into the air and back down. But that doesn’t mean the tower can change the commander’s plan for no reason.
The environment was safe, there was no reason mix up the take off sequence.Yes, and that’s what is actually happening here in a way, it’s just that BMS Ops “commander” sees the priority differently than you. A wing/squadron commander can’t just get on an ATC freq and “order” a takeoff sequence. Base ops, ATO tasking/priority, landing traffic, ground crew support, emergencies, etc. all come into play there. Yes, Ops ground based representatives maybe able to argue your takeoff sequence for you, but it’s not going to be you with your butt in the seat saying “let my flight taxi now.” That could be some of what is done on the Ops frequency that we currently don’t really use in BMS, but that’s not actually an ATC freq so it would be relayed to the ground controller after passing through probably multiple links in the chain. It’s still not a order that can be done from the cockpit, in USAF ATC one of the few times an enlisted E-3 can tell an officer O-7 what to do. That O-7 might be able to strongly impose their will via back channels via Ops freq etc. but it still would be other people in a room saying, “the General really wants to go now, how far forward can we realistically bump him?” and it still may not be the front of the line. Again as @Mav-jp and I are saying, this problem is being exacerbated by airbase parking slots on the designer side but then something with your Campaign ATO or TE flights amount.
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To put in a bit of context: The behavior Prot is talking about happens on a AB with two runways. There are 2 sqdn on the airbase and about 10 Aircraft planned for take off with a time seperation of two minutes between flights, all in a TE. There are no approaching aicraft.
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@Korbi that helps. 3 flights of 4/2 or 4 flights of 4/2 (@Prot mentioned at least one flight of 4) ?
What airbases? I’ve seen parking congestion cause delays like this. You may have to stagger your take off times even more or elimate flights that aren’t really needed. There are reasons that there are holding times built into package push points on campaign planned flight plans, and ATC delays is one of those reasons.
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@Korbi said in Start sequence order by tower:
To put in a bit of context: The behavior Prot is talking about happens on a AB with two runways. There are 2 sqdn on the airbase and about 10 Aircraft planned for take off with a time seperation of two minutes between flights, all in a TE. There are no approaching aicraft.
and what is the issue ?
is the real take off time greater than 10 minutes compared with the planned one ?