Solved Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?
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Playing dynamic campaign on a 2D map interface, it seems that game engines do not perform the same simulation calculations as in the 3D world.
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In a nutshell:
2D -> Statistic
3D -> Simulation -
@KBCT said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
Playing dynamic campaign on a 2D map interface, it seems that game engines do not perform the same simulation calculations as in the 3D world.
Please expand
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@KBCT
That is normal.
In 3D all the maneuvers, single units, weapons… are simulated within a 3D realm. These calculations happen inside the “3D bubble” around the player, battallions and flight are “deaggregated” into single units.
In 2D, it is more of a statistical calculation with aggregated battalions and flights. This functions more like a real time strategy game, different from 3D (but as best close to as it can be).
Of course, there are differences. While a 4-flight may stand the encounter against a SA-10 in 2D, it may be wiped out in 3D within seconds.And an additional thing is, if no player flies, the campaign loses initiative and gets more and more static. Flying missions keeps things moving. Thats intended to reward active and succesful players.
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Yep. @Atze-0 gave you correct direction.
There is no way to run strategic element of the game with our computing power - like, in 3d - hence, “bubble” , everything “in it” will run in “high fidelity”, (correctly simulated … or so…) “de-aggregated”…
Everything “out of the bubble” will run “aggregated” (2d simulated) - “low fidelity”.
And those two stages differ a lot … in BMS. (probably everywhere).
BMS (and Falcon4) still needs a lot of tweaking to close the difference between high / low fidelity … it is an art , and PITAFor better understanding, our stubborn friend @tiag has made very good series of videos for understanding principles of “Dynamic Campaign”
Watch those , you’ll get the overall picture why is happening that what you’ve asked.
Cheers!!
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@KBCT said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
Playing dynamic campaign on a 2D map interface, it seems that game engines do not perform the same simulation calculations as in the 3D world.
Of course it is not that is the price of having DC. The 2D camp. engine is a RTS game with lots of abstractions which means such “surprises” rarely happens what is possible in 3D world.
This is not a bug, this is a feature. It is impossible to fine tune the 2D engine but without the 2D camp. engine DC is simply impossible.
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@molnibalage said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
@KBCT said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
Playing dynamic campaign on a 2D map interface, it seems that game engines do not perform the same simulation calculations as in the 3D world.
Of course it is not that is the price of having DC. The 2D camp. engine is a RTS game with lots of abstractions which means such “surprises” rarely happens what is possible in 3D world.
This is not a bug, this is a feature. It is impossible to fine tune the 2D engine but without the 2D camp. engine DC is simply impossible.
Another factor that the 2D engine was created to the original environment of the F4.0. While the 4+(+) gen F-16s and weapons simply deviates from that state as well as the multi target channel capable SAMs like the PATRIOT or S-300.
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Got me curious now, how big is this “bubble” in 3D? and does it move with the player aircraft in real-time as the player flies or is it pre-rendered along the player’s flight path/flight plan?
@white_fang said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
For better understanding, our stubborn friend @tiag has made very good series of videos for understanding principles of “Dynamic Campaign”
Watch those , you’ll get the overall picture why is happening that what you’ve asked.
Cheers!!
Wow, thanks!!
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@Atlas iirc it’s mostly 20nm but with some exceptions, eg. for long-range SAMs
and as you use various sensors… FCR and TGP… will deaggregate units in a longer cone of view
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In a nutshell:
2D -> Statistic
3D -> Simulation -
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@airtex2019
I think it is 200, not 20.
But yes, there are things that deaggregate nearer and things that do it farther away and it is some sort of dynamic, i.e. with long range weapons.
There exists somewhere a map graphic for that based on several tests.@Atlas
It moves seamlessly with the player. In multiplayer, there can be multiple bubbles -
Sure not 200. Just review a Tacview recording and you’ll see objects appear out of nothing, that’s when they entered the bubble so 20-40
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@oakdesign
It also depends on other things. Air is different from ground. It depends where your radar looks. Or when you fire a long range weapon or one is fired upon you, it gets its own small bubble and so on.
If not, a SA-5 would never be able to fire on you at such huge distances or you could not fire a HARM at them from max range and follow them in external view. -
@oakdesign said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
Sure not 200. Just review a Tacview recording and you’ll see objects appear out of nothing, that’s when they entered the bubble so 20-40
164nm
Look here from @I-Hawk :
https://forum.falcon-bms.com/post/296036But of course, it differs on standpoint and definition.
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@Atze-0 I know about the temp bubble as I have made intensive testing on the Delikah which is one of the weapons with theongsst range. But still that is a limited bubble to the weapon only. The 1M feet SimBubbleSize doesn’t mean that every object as agged in that bubble, but that the weapon/spitemp bubbles work if they are within
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FALCON BMS is a masterpiece with its dynamic campaign and the most important gear that allows all this symphony of units throughout the theater of operations without collapsing is the bubble concept, the bubbles are dynamic even when entering and leaving between 2 units, They do not have the same dimensions, the sensors use the concept of beams of light, where what is in that beam is disaggregated and enters pure and simple mathematics, while what is outside the bubble continues to be added and is considered statistical mathematics, this It happens if the bubble of our plane has not yet touched the enemy aircraft or vice versa, whichever happens first, if the bubble of one of the two is touching the other unit, it disaggregates and the sensor will already be looking at something disaggregated. The SAM types SA-2, SA-4, SA-5, SA-10, MIM-14, MIM-23, MIM-104 are approximately the largest bubbles, but the largest ones are found in all maritime units ( there must be a reason).
Maybe if someone wants to experiment and see how this dynamic of the bubbles works, record an ACMI of a campaign and see it with TACVIEW, you will see the units how they appear and disappear, you will see the dynamics of this method and touching on the topic, if one day the ‘‘unmentionable’’ game manages to make the famous dynamic campaign that it has been promising for years, it will have to execute a method very similar to that of the bubbles, there is no other way.
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@Atlas said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
Got me curious now, how big is this “bubble” in 3D? and does it move with the player aircraft in real-time as the player flies or is it pre-rendered along the player’s flight path/flight plan?
@white_fang said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
For better understanding, our stubborn friend @tiag has made very good series of videos for understanding principles of “Dynamic Campaign”
Watch those , you’ll get the overall picture why is happening that what you’ve asked.
Cheers!!
Wow, thanks!!
This is misconception
There is no bubble around the player , there is a bubble around every unit in game and it is deagged when the player enters each bubble.
The size of the bubble is dépendant on units , for flights it’s dynamically dépendant on radar ranges , for ground unit it can range from 10NM for a infantry unit to more than 60NM for a Sam unit
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@Mav-jp
Interesting. Does the player not have his own bubble to represent his radar range?
But what you’re saying is that each unit has a bubble determined by unit type (infantry = small bubble, SAM = big bubble) and when the player gets close enough, the unit goes from 2D to 3D so in theory, the player can be in 2 bubbles — an infantry unit near him and a SAM unit further away that’s tracking him. Is that correct?Very cool that each unit has it’s own bubble; I always thought it was the player that had the bubble but now that you mention it, it does make more sense.
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@Atlas said in Does it have different result if we run a dynamic campaign in 2D only or in 3D only?:
@Mav-jp
Interesting. Does the player not have his own bubble to represent his radar range?
But what you’re saying is that each unit has a bubble determined by unit type (infantry = small bubble, SAM = big bubble) and when the player gets close enough, the unit goes from 2D to 3D so in theory, the player can be in 2 bubbles — an infantry unit near him and a SAM unit further away that’s tracking him. Is that correct?Very cool that each unit has it’s own bubble; I always thought it was the player that had the bubble but now that you mention it, it does make more sense.
For flight the flights bubble is Dynamcally computed since 4.35 as the biggest of the radar range player vs flight and flight vs player as we don’t want the player to see a « flight » on his radar and we want a flight to be able to deagg and engage a player when in radar range
Of course player is in many bubbles in the same time as every unit as it’s own bubble centered on the units position