Thirsty Wingmen
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Hi!
I noticed in my missions that my wingmen consume the fuel at a much higher rate than me, extensive usage of the AB. E.g. when my fuel state reaches 4000 and I ask them about their fuel state it’s usually about 3000 or even less. This is especially quite uncomfortable in Deep Strike missions, because I can fly without external tanks, but my wingmen not… :neutral:
Is there a way to make them save fuel?
Regards
blue_plasma -
Not sure about how to get your wingmen to conserve fuel…but it might be best for them to carry external fuel tank. Some may do this as a standard procedure.
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Most of the time, wingman will always use more fuel for rejoining after Takeoff. Then, it’s the job of the lead to adopt a climb trajectory that can be quick and easy to join up for the wing : make a turn, wingman will join in the turn.
BTW, ALWAYS use two wing tanks, this is the standard loadout needed for a F-16.
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Most of the time, wingman will always use more fuel for rejoining after Takeoff. Then, it’s the job of the lead to adopt a climb trajectory that can be quick and easy to join up for the wing : make a turn, wingman will join in the turn.
BTW, ALWAYS use two wing tanks, this is the standard loadout needed for a F-16.
You mean I should wait a little for them, ok. But why always two tanks??? Is it really the standard loadout? I think this should depend on mission type, doesn’t it?
There’s so much more funnier iron, that can be put under the wings. :twisted:
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You mean I should wait a little for them, ok. But why always two tanks??? Is it really the standard loadout? I think this should depend on mission type, doesn’t it?
There’s so much more funnier iron, that can be put under the wings. :twisted:
You did say “Deep Stike”.
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You mean I should wait a little for them, ok. But why always two tanks??? Is it really the standard loadout? ….
There are exceptions, but they are rare. Search ‘Standard Conventional Loads’ or ‘PACAF Standard Conventional Loads’ on Google.
Regardless, because of the AI propensity to use fuel at a higher rate and bingo at a higher fuel value, I ALWAYS give AI wing tanks.
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Standart procedure on AG missions for the F-16, 2 drop tanks under the wings. Most AG tasks requires a lot of fuel anyway.
If you take only 1, you will have a “trapped fuel” warning after some time : the fuel system cannot use 1 drop tank only, and wont be able to use most of the fuel in the drop tank.
And if you take 0 and extra bombs instead, you will have a lot of drag and not much fuel, so you will never have any margin and if anything happens - enemy fighters, SAMs…. - you will have to abort anyway.
BTW, in BMS, you can burn your fuel to the last pound, but IRL, below 1000 pounds, you have significant chances of flameout (unuseable fuel, gauge precision, etc…). And if you do land with less than the minimum required (depends on the variant, but around 1000), get ready to get yelled at.
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Talking to the more experienced guys …… not everybody is familiar with the concept of Drag …Lift … etc … so i guess for some it’s hard to understand. No offense intended , but this sim becomes so complex that at some point, a bit of knowledge on aerodynamic and how an airplane fllies is needed.
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I notice this Wingman burn issue more in training missions than campaigns.
Join early - cruise high - manage them and make sure you are going home well in advance of bingo fuel if they don’t have tanks so they don’t divert to the nearest airstrip. ( and if they do you might have to cover them)
Tanks pah - rarely need them myself - often only load 3/7 for A-G - so less drag / weight - a big difference in cruise height and fuel consumption - there are also plenty of other airfields and tankers to divert to in these wars.
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Wingmen, AI or not, tend to use more fuel than their flight leads. You just fly where you wanna go, they spend more fuel on stationkeeping, on catching up, etc…
Assume your wingman has less fuel than you in general, and always (unless flying with only AI) prebrief your bingo/joker levels.
There are exceptions, but they are rare. Search ‘Standard Conventional Loads’ or ‘PACAF Standard Conventional Loads’ on Google.
Regardless, because of the AI propensity to use fuel at a higher rate and bingo at a higher fuel value, I ALWAYS give AI wing tanks.
You know that doc is included with BMS, right?
it also has a LOT of SCLs which have no wing tanks at all.
Tanks pah - rarely need them myself - often only load 3/7 for A-G - so less drag / weight - a big difference in cruise height and fuel consumption - there are also plenty of other airfields and tankers to divert to in these wars.
Its the short short ranges in BMS that does it. Its amusing that the dash lists lower cruise altitudes for short range missions - i.e. missions with TMR less than 250 miles.
For BMS, thats at least 80% of missions for 95% of vpilots…
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extensive usage of the AB
Also : if you are at MIL power its only logical the wingmens use more AB for joining up and keeping formation… try to leave some power margin for your wingmen in the climb and in cruise
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You know that doc is included with BMS, right? …ROFL. No. I’ve collected up so many of these, I’d forgot where I got that one.
…. it also has a LOT of SCLs which have no wing tanks at all. …
mmmm …. I guess that depends on your definition of ‘a LOT’. On F-16’s, it looks to more like ‘a few’ or ‘not many’ to me.
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it also has a LOT of SCLs which have no wing tanks at all.
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It does but you’ll almost never see an F-16 without wing tanks in a combat sortie today (unless special circumstances).
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Wm : “Viper 1-2, airborne”
Fl : “Return to base”Problem solved! ;);)
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One thing to be aware of is that the verbal AI report of fuel is truncated so 3001 lbs. and 3999 lbs. they both say “three thousand.” You can only have a good idea of the exact fuel if you catch a transition in numbers, 5000, 5000, 5000, 4000. OK now you know he is at 4999.
AI actually use less fuel than the player (at least in cruise). When I go on long cruise flights they might use 500 lbs. less than I do over the course of the entire flight. It’s all the extra work and unique way they fly when not saddled that takes the fuel. In a lot of ways the player is using too little fuel, not maximizing the performance of the airplane when in combat. AI floor it during engagements which is a good lesson. Trying to fly economy under threat is a risky practice that takes more experience than I have to effectively manage. Instead of asking why your wingmen have so little fuel, ask why you have so much. Did you hit M1.3 during that MiG-29 fight? Did you drop those bombs at 550 knots? Why not?
AI time spent engaged or rejoining formation is expensive time. Minimize it by knowing the AI commands very well. He says hounddog do you ignore it? Do you set weapons free on fence in and let him do his thing? If he gets a kill do you let him engage the next target freely? Does the AG mission require many passes to deliver many weapons? Engagements should be violent and brief. Order the attack, weapon away, disengage, rejoin, separate.
Lead during rejoins carries half the responsibility. After takeoff, level off and slow to 350 until everyone is saddled. AI will track you down over 20-30nm at 500 knots in a climb if it has to but the fuel cost is obviously high. Use turns and speed to allow AI to generate 100-150 knots of closure without prolonged AB use. The farther away they are the more overtake they think they need.
There’s also helping AI by flying a good profile yourself. Too many pilots take off and just pull back at full throttle to center the TOS caret. Instead it’s better to takeoff, climb to a reasonable altitude, rejoin at 300-350 and then accelerate the formation to climb speed. Climb speed is surprisingly high, often much faster than caret speed. Go faster to caret to cruise altitude (ignoring the flight plan and going for an economy altitude at this point can help somewhat too). Once at cruise throttle back to best range speed (~250) often less than caret and travel toward the combat area. Once it’s possible to be attacked keep it 300 or better and resume mission timing as required. Try to use less than 100% by a small amount during the climb as it prevents AI from having to go AB in little spurts.
And lastly AI bingo very conservatively. They plan on a fuel usage that’s appropriate for a heavy/draggy load for the entire flight plan plus alternate plus minimum fuel after that. More fuel, less weapons, and tanker on the outbound leg for any long mission.
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Is there a way to make them save fuel?
You will be surprised to learn that AI specific fuel consumation is less than human.
But yes, as explained by Amraam, a mingman (AI or Human) will always burn more fuel than lead.
If the difference is huge between you and your wingy, (if no evasive or offensive action) it is probably because you are a bad leader. Learn how to help your wingman to help you … Read carefully previous posts featuring some good advises (not talking about post#14)
And take good note about the “always at least two wing tanks” … Remeber, more weapons to deliver means more fuel required to perform the mission (more drag, more attack passes, more vul time, more risks of being intercepted or targeted by ground to air defences …)
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Lots of valuable information here… but what about the enemy (AI) planes and their fuel consumption? Sometimes I have an impression that they fly with ‘infinite fuel’ on…
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what about the enemy (AI) planes and their fuel consumption? Sometimes I have an impression that they fly with ‘infinite fuel’ on…
No. No infinite fuel.
The same rules applies for all AIs. Same computation, same requirements (depending on a/c type, drag, altitude, speed, …) same bingo abort.
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Maybe when the deagg happens, the AC is with a full fuel load, like a human player recommiting in 3d…
Never tested it though.
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Maybe when the deagg happens, the AC is with a full fuel load, like a human player recommiting in 3d…
Never tested it though.
Even not. Whatever Agg or Deagg, AIs are burning fuel.