Overhead break speeds
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Hi all,
For years we have been using 300 kts speed (cas) for the initial fase of the overhead break.
I heard that this speed is 350 kts for other types of F-16s from somebody.I was wondering if that has any basis in Real Life?
So do all F-16 variants fly 300 kts in the overhead break or does that vary?
Thanks for your input.
Edit: sources of different speeds would be appreciated
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this guy looks like heās done this beforeā¦ 300k CAS and 1500 ft AGL (I think itās Luke AFB, field elev is ~1100 ft)not sure about the 90-degree bank, 5G brake turn but apparently it was his fini-flight so ā¦ ok
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hey Snowman.
did a bit of googling and essentially what i found out is that there is no set speed.
you mightāve seen this one already but here itās flown very aggressively but with a starting speed of 315 kts at 1660 agl (i did notice his radar altimeter kept working at that bank angleā¦ naise)https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13328 here the 2nd to last post is the most informative but it concerns tactical overheads and not normal overheads.
https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/11-F16V3.pdf pages 20-22 are an interesting read. but again donāt give exact numbers, just a bracket to fly in. and itās a document from 1995 so old procedures.
https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/END-Archive/afi11-2f-16v3.pdf this one is from 1999 and has conflicting information with the previous one on where the break should be initiated. no set speeds given, but it does give specific points on where the jet should be on short final.
i think real life thereās a lot more leeway in how the overhead is flown compared to how we fly it in the sim, as long as certain parameters are met as described in the above 2 documents.
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Or give tribute to BMS team. Korea BEM Vol5 in your doc folder, search, āoverheadā.
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Hi Revolpathon,
Thank you for the answer. Interesting but a bit off topic
hey Snowman.
did a bit of googling and essentially what i found out is that there is no set speed.
you mightāve seen this one already but here itās flown very aggressively but with a starting speed of 315 kts at 1660 agl (i did notice his radar altimeter kept working at that bank angleā¦ naise)I have seen this. Speed is ~309 on initial and of course thats ~300 so an argument for 300 kts as a guideline as i see it?
https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13328 here the 2nd to last post is the most informative but it concerns tactical overheads and not normal overheads.
Interesting, but not the question. Tactical arrivals are completly different subject.
https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/11-F16V3.pdf pages 20-22 are an interesting read. but again donāt give exact numbers, just a bracket to fly in. and itās a document from 1995 so old procedures.
https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/END-Archive/afi11-2f-16v3.pdf this one is from 1999 and has conflicting information with the previous one on where the break should be initiated. no set speeds given, but it does give specific points on where the jet should be on short final.
Yes interesting but no speeds which is the question.
i think real life thereās a lot more leeway in how the overhead is flown compared to how we fly it in the sim, as long as certain parameters are met as described in the above 2 documents.
I think in the sim you should also have more leeway, but if we write a procedure to teach from it should have some basis in RL or logic (hopefully both).
Thats why we use 300 knots traditionally since multiple sources can be found that support that. I have not found any for other speeds so i am trying to find them -
Or give tribute to BMS team. Korea BEM Vol5 in your doc folder, search, āoverheadā.
Which is one of the sources for 300 kts
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A military pilot that is part of the team.
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i donāt think there is a set speed. just a bracket and posssibly squadron specific. 300 kts works in bms. never flew them at 350 - 270 in bms so not sure how the jet would behave or slow down in the turn to final. but iām assuming that will work as well. afaik there are no offical publicized documents that give speeds and such.
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300kts 1500ft AGL
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IIRC, 300KIAS comes from MCH F-16 Vol.3 and/or Dash1 ā¦
This is the typical recommended. procedure. But it may be subject to different S.O.P.s
Canāt be 40Ā° 2.2g ā¦ since 60Ā° is 2g ā¦
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/performance/q0146.shtml
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Thanks for the feedback guys,
Is there any indication that the speed is different for F-16blk52?
I get this as a reason to set the speed to 350 ktThx and happy flying
Snowman
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It really depends on where you are. If you are mixing with civil traffic you should hold to 250 and below within an ATA. Otherwise itās ācourse rulesā within a Restricted area.
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Indeed I think it depends where you are and there is a bit of leeway I think. And it might depend which service you are in. Air Force might be more strict than Navy from what I heard. Mover has a video here where he does an overhead ācarrierā break at 800 ft and he says that he will not mention speed, but itās clear that heās quite a bit faster than 300 kts.:
Around 20 minutes into the video.
There were also great stories on Tomcat Sunset from Hoser how they played with the overhead break at NAS Miramar. F-14ās frequently coming in at 500 kts. Often that was allowed, but sometimes they got a new admiral as base commander who was a lot more strict and they tried to stop it. So then they had stories how the tower used pencil marks to check the speed, making the pilots break earlier so the marks were useless. Or the admiral sitting next to the runway with radar detector, making pilots coming in from all kinds of different angles.
Of course, these were the 70ās/80ās. Things were a lot different then I suppose.F-16ās here seem to do 1500 ft around 300 to 350 kts although every now and then they do seem to go faster. But in real life they frequently seem to fly the break a bit sportier than what I see sim guys do in youtube videos. So it does seem they have a bit more leeway. But it probably depends on service and country and which airport you are.
The Navy seem to have a bit more leeway, especially around the boat when thereās nobody else around.
Perhaps itās similar to what I once read from an F-14B pilot. With the new GE engines they werenāt allowed to do afterburner take offs. But somebody once asked on a forum if they could do afterburner take offs and his answer was: depends on whoās looking. Maybe that applies to the overhead break too.
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300 KTS 1500 AGL
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Do a search on youtube and see what the real pilots do. There are quite a few hud videoās of incentive rides if you search:
This guy flies 340 kts @ 1500 ft AGL.
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Given the option, I prefer 350knots, 3g, as it gets you down quicker, also means you donāt need to apply any power at the end of the break turn, onto downwind, so one less variable in the turn.
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Indeed I think it depends where you are and there is a bit of leeway I think. And it might depend which service you are in. Air Force might be more strict than Navy from what I heard. Mover has a video here where he does an overhead ācarrierā break at 800 ft and he says that he will not mention speed, but itās clear that heās quite a bit faster than 300 kts.:
Around 20 minutes into the video.
There were also great stories on Tomcat Sunset from Hoser how they played with the overhead break at NAS Miramar. F-14ās frequently coming in at 500 kts. Often that was allowed, but sometimes they got a new admiral as base commander who was a lot more strict and they tried to stop it. So then they had stories how the tower used pencil marks to check the speed, making the pilots break earlier so the marks were useless. Or the admiral sitting next to the runway with radar detector, making pilots coming in from all kinds of different angles.
Of course, these were the 70ās/80ās. Things were a lot different then I suppose.F-16ās here seem to do 1500 ft around 300 to 350 kts although every now and then they do seem to go faster. But in real life they frequently seem to fly the break a bit sportier than what I see sim guys do in youtube videos. So it does seem they have a bit more leeway. But it probably depends on service and country and which airport you are.
The Navy seem to have a bit more leeway, especially around the boat when thereās nobody else around.
Perhaps itās similar to what I once read from an F-14B pilot. With the new GE engines they werenāt allowed to do afterburner take offs. But somebody once asked on a forum if they could do afterburner take offs and his answer was: depends on whoās looking. Maybe that applies to the overhead break too.
Iād concur about Navy ops at or around the boat - not only are they not dealing with any civil restrictions, but they are also over waterā¦so, if CAG clears you you can make your pass supersonic for all thatās worthā¦I once escorted a visiting Eagle driver to his jet for departure, at a base where the runways put departure over water, crossing the Pacific coast. As we approached the jet, I asked - āsoā¦you gonna stand this thing on itās tail and show these Tomcat jocks what a REAL jet can do?ā He balked - āprobably not, that sort of thing has a way of getting back to youā. At which point I asked how he was going home, and he said he was just leaving VFRā¦to which I answered - āso ask for a VFR departure and climb at your best angle - this is a Navy base, they donāt know your best angle is 90 degrees!ā His answer - āwhoa, yeahā¦and I WILL be over waterā¦and if they clear meā¦ā I left him with āhave a good flight sirā, went to lunch, and returned to find a nest of jealous Tomcat driversā¦
ā¦OTOH - if you are operating even near a civil area (let alone within an ATA), you may also have noise abatement and/or additional public safety restrictions to deal with which limit your available speed by limiting your turn radius to being within the boundaries of a ground reference. I happen to live off the departure end of a Naval runway, and the course rules include that pilotās have to make all pattern turns north of the main road that runs E/W - two blocks north of where I live during - all arrivals/departures. That sort of thing can place a limit on the usable airspace and also induce a maneuvering speed limitā¦which will of course also depend on type of aircraft.
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Iād concur about Navy ops at or around the boat - not only are they not dealing with any civil restrictions, but they are also over waterā¦so, if CAG clears you you can make your pass supersonic for all thatās worthā¦I once escorted a visiting Eagle driver to his jet for departure, at a base where the runways put departure over water, crossing the Pacific coast. As we approached the jet, I asked - āsoā¦you gonna stand this thing on itās tail and show these Tomcat jocks what a REAL jet can do?ā He balked - āprobably not, that sort of thing has a way of getting back to youā. At which point I asked how he was going home, and he said he was just leaving VFRā¦to which I answered - āso ask for a VFR departure and climb at your best angle - this is a Navy base, they donāt know your best angle is 90 degrees!ā His answer - āwhoa, yeahā¦and I WILL be over waterā¦and if they clear meā¦ā I left him with āhave a good flight sirā, went to lunch, and returned to find a nest of jealous Tomcat driversā¦
ā¦OTOH - if you are operating even near a civil area (let alone within an ATA), you may also have noise abatement and/or additional public safety restrictions to deal with which limit your available speed by limiting your turn radius to being within the boundaries of a ground reference. I happen to live off the departure end of a Naval runway, and the course rules include that pilotās have to make all pattern turns north of the main road that runs E/W - two blocks north of where I live during - all arrivals/departures. That sort of thing can place a limit on the usable airspace and also induce a maneuvering speed limitā¦which will of course also depend on type of aircraft.
Hehe, cool story. Similar story came from Hoser at Nellis Air Force base. Nellis was very strict on the 300 kts, so to liven things up Hoser plugged in the afterburner during the break. when asked on the ground why he did that, he said the F-14A wouldnāt stay airborne entering the break at 300 kts if he didnāt use the afterburner.
of course Hoser also did an 80 degree break with his S-2 firebomber. When asked why he did an 80 degree break his reply was: at 90 degrees the plane will not stay airborne.And to counter the Eagle story ;). This was a cool story from Dale Snodgrass:
"_I was an Ensign ( the lowest commissioned officer rank) and had just completed carrier qualification in the Tomcatā¦day and night. Being the first Ensign and the only one direct out of flight school to do that, I was rewarded with the privilege of picking up a brand new F-14 from the Grumman factory in Long Island, NY. My father was a VP with Grumman Flight Test and a long time test pilot. Being given the honor to pick up a pristine, brand new, world-beating fighter with my father delivering it to me was maybe the proudest and most cherished experience of my lifeā¦I donāt think I was ever more proud of him or he of me.But thatās just the preludeā¦with me was a RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) who was also an Ensign. Grumman seized the publicity opportunity and while my father relished the moment, I focused on the flight back to NAS Miramar in San Diego. Not the weather nor the enroute supportā¦but a fuel stop at Luke AFB outside Phoenix. It was during the ā73/ā74 fuel crisis and Luke had refused transient fuel stops for over a year and a half. Literally days before my flight to Miramar, they had lifted the restriction. Prior to my touchdown, no F-14 had ever landed at Luke. I knew they were to receive the USAFās first operational F-15 the day after our stopā¦ā¦the pot was too sweet to resist!
It was a short leg from Luke to Miramar so I knew I could request a unrestricted climb in full afterburner out of thereā¦thus I timed my arrival for a late afternoon arrival and dusk take off (best light to see the 75 foot burner plume). The F-14 vs F-15 controversy was at its pinnacle, so the fuel stop was mandatory in my young parochial Navy Fighter Pilot eyes.
The real humor lies in how the USAF received me. As I taxied in I was directed to a parking spot directly in front of Base Operations normally reserved for Generals / High Ranking Officials. As we shut down the engines, a USAF sedan drove up and a Brigadier General popped out to meet us. I told my RIO to put on his cover (hat with our rank insignia) on as the canopy came up. Climbing down from the cockpit, I gave the General a proper salute but the expression on his face when he saw not one, but TWO Ensigns flying a brand new kick ass fighter that was head to head with the F-15ā¦which no less than a Major had flownā¦was priceless. Never was I more proud to be a Naval Aviator!!!_"
RIP both Hoser and Snort!
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Not THAT was a good story!
While I was still at that same base - summer of 1986 or '87, I think - the DoD broke out a Tomcat that had been flagged and held at Grumman since the mid 70ās - because it was supposed to be an Iranian F-14 - and delivered it to the USN Test community. They sent it to us, still in Iranian camo - and with that ābrand new Tomcat smellā still intact. I think it had 12 hours on it when it landed, and ALL of the jocks wanted a turn flying it. Grumman sent a crew out to paint and āNavalizeā itā¦which didnāt actually take as long as I might have thought.
It was sure pretty - brand, spankinā new in the late 80ās! Iām sure theyāve since de-milād itā¦just like all the rest of 'emā¦
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Yeah, most of them have been scrapped. itās too bad that most of them ended up that way. Such an awesome jet.