Maverick question
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the question asked was :“How can I reset or remove the AGM-65 LOS circle or circles if no missile is launched.
Answer : “DGFT-MSL OVRD and back to AG”.Perfectly correct answer to that question. “Land, shut down, try again tomorrow” is also a valid answer to that question as well.
As for target reject. Its pretty simple. TMS down.
That just breaks track. By reject I mean like when you ground the box in DTOS and change your mind.
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Perfectly correct answer to that question. “Land, shut down, try again tomorrow” is also a valid answer to that question as well.
That just breaks track. By reject I mean like when you ground the box in DTOS and change your mind.
Yes… correct answer but I doubt anyone would take you seriously.
Lets put this to sleep.
Fact :The AGM-65 LOS circle can only be removed if you exit the AG mode and transition to NAV, AA, MSL OVRD or DGFT or the missile is launched. TMS dose not remove the LOS circle (Applies to PRE / BORE / VIS).
Fact :
Switching to MSL OVRD / DGFT adds a second property when the TGM-65 training missile is used. It reactivates the weapon video for re-attacks.
These are facts, and cannot be disputed.If there is some software upgrade in the latest tapes, that is something I have no knowledge about.
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I dispute that that is fact, and posit that while your description of TMS is correct, that DMS can remove the LOS circle, and that this SOI transition which happens when the mastermode is transitioned, is the reason that changing mastermodes removes the LOS circle.
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In next update you will be able to remove the LOS by changing any MM and not only DGFT/MRM-OVRD.
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…in effect, by positively deselecting the weapon in any manner…which sounds perfectly reasonable for the TGM.
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I dispute that that is fact, and posit that while your description of TMS is correct, that DMS can remove the LOS circle, and that this SOI transition which happens when the mastermode is transitioned, is the reason that changing mastermodes removes the LOS circle.
Lost you,… and you dispute a fact ? On what basis ?
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+1 in agreement Leach, as the DMS simply reassigns SOI and should not deselect the weapon; but transitioning master mode does. As long as the MAV is under pickle the appropriate symbology should persist.
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I dont dispute a fact - I dispute that it is fact. A minor distinction. I don’t feel that is has been adequately proved to be a fact in the first place. 2.8.12.1.11.8 (quoted numerous times) specifically denies it.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation. If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track. If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
This is the part that is apparently disputed. This last sentence. As I had thought had been made pretty clear on the last page.
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Actually, this makes perfect sense because the cursor assignment is being moved to the new SOI and the MAV is still under pickle. So all the missile can do is go to SLAVE. DMS should do nothing to the weapon selection, and that’s the real point of why it shouldn’t drop any weapon symbology - the MAV is still powered up; only dif between the TGM and the AGM is missile present on the wing - the TGM is always there, and so the circle persists until the selection is cycled.
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As the slave condition is the predesignate condition for the weapon, its a not insignificant nuance. Changing mastermodes also takes SOI away from WPN, and has the same effect - and is mentally easier to associate than is DMS, which is very likely why it would be taught as operational practice, especially given the tie in with the TGM-65, given how aircrew will likely use that more often than the AGM-65.
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It really does not matter which missile is used. Symbology and procedures are the same.
With the TGM-65 loaded ,once the pickle button is pressed for a simulated shot (or shots) the avionics behave as if an AGM-65 was fired. You will still see weapon quantity countdown and removal of the LOS circle for the ‘launched” missile etc. The only difference is that the missile remains on the launcher, and the WPN page can be reset for subsequent shots. -
One more +1, Leech…but I’m thinking that with the TGM the reason you lose everything but might still see the circle is because you haven’t really dropped power from the missile - only sent it into another training state, and this would be the core dif between the TGM and an AGM; and I’m thing of a single missile on a single rail here - seeing as trying to find a couple dozen TGMs for training for a division of jets would be…er…cost prohibitive. There’s not really any reason to carry more than one per jet for training purposes. I’d have to know more about what the jet actually does electrically…but I can speculate. Bottom line is that I believe your statement “The AGM-65 LOS circle can only be removed if you exit the AG mode and transition to NAV, AA, MSL OVRD or DGFT. TMS dose not remove the LOS circle” to be 100% correct…and that the reason that switching master modes does remove the circle is because power is removed when the weapon is no longer under pickle. So - you can/could do one of two things with a TGM to get it back for another shot - reset it from the WPN page, or deselect/re-select the weapon to reset - which can also be done quickly by de-select/re-select of A/G master mode.
Blu3wolf - SOI and designation state truly has nothing to do with missile reset or dropping it’s symbology for either the TGM or the AGM. All the crew need know is where cursors (SOI) are assigned and that everything else slaves to cursors…that’s pretty straightforward to keep track of. If you release the missile designation you have to re-establish.
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And yet the manual says otherwise, and Im more inclined to trust it than your word.
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I think the manual is right, you’re just interpreting it wrong. It sounds to me like the behavior is correct - given some past “outside” experience.
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Well Stevie, you yourself agreed that DMS down should command a return to slaved condition, so you are agreeing with me anyway…
As that was the point which IHawk was disputing.
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What dose the manual say exactly ?
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I have quoted the revelant sections thereof in this thread quite a few times now… if it is needed I do so again, I will do so when I am at a computer and can copy-paste it.
Well here we go! The relevant posts which include sections of the manual are included below:
@Blu3wolf:Hi,
You need to RTFM the Maverick section of the BMS 3-4. Once a Mav is slewed, it becomes ground stabilized and works on its own, in order to “Reset” it you can change Master mode to DGFT/MRM-Override and cancel.
Perhaps you have it right there I-Hawk. I dont happen to have an F-16 on my person to test it out on, though.
I spotted this which details when the Mav gets returned to the slaved condition, and that would seem to support what you are saying about the TMS down causing it to break track but otherwise stay where it is.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation. If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track. If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
2.8.12.1 AGM-65 SMS/WPN Page. If an AGM-65 weapon is selected, peculiar EO options are available. The following EO submodes are accessible:
PRE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to SPI, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
VIS – Visual delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to TD box, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
BORE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to its bore LOS, AGM-65 LOS in BORE.So, it would be TMS down to break the track, then either DMS down or up depending on the mode (VIS or PRE). That seems like it would be quite intuitive in operation, actually.
So a TMS up with the SOI on the WPN page would command a track. A TMS down would command a return to slew mode. A DMS up (assuming VIS mode here) would command SOI to the HUD, and the Maverick would be commanded back to the SLAVE mode (which in VIS would point it back to the TD box LOS). Very intuitive.
There is some debate over that…
There is no debate here, and repeating the same thing and quoting the same sentences from the 3-4 again and again will not change anything, I suggest to re-read my post above if you really feel like you need to
Those posts being here:
@I-Hawk:Well… I sure hope that you:
1. Realize that it would be EXTREMELY odd for me to just pop such behavior out of my mind.The implication of course being that you did not make this up, and that you are not the firsthand source for the information. The only issue there is the flack that Dan Hampton gets over the stuff in Viper Pilot, specifically the things he says you can do in an F-16, which no manual supports.
@I-Hawk:Hi,
You need to RTFM the Maverick section of the BMS 3-4. Once a Mav is slewed, it becomes ground stabilized and works on its own, in order to “Reset” it you can change Master mode to DGFT/MRM-Override and cancel.
See, the manual agrees that this will work. By switching master modes, you move the SOI away from the WPN page, and thus command a return to slaved condition. There is no debate about this - it will work.
@I-Hawk:I’m fairly certain that it is correct behavior, EVEN if the real manuals may suggest otherwise…
Well. As mentioned above, it is correct behavior, in that it will work. Its likely even operational practice, because switching to DGFT and back is quick and easy. That switching mastermodes is the only way to do that… the manual does not suggest otherwise, it flat out states otherwise. But it does not state that switching mastermodes will not work - because it will.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation.
Well, everyone agrees about this part also.
If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track.
This part is irrelevant to BMS, because FTT/GMTT acquire track instantly in BMS, rather than taking 5 to 10 seconds to get a stable track. So, its basically just the same as the last sentence, until/unless the GM/GMT modes get an upgrade in a future BMS version.
If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
This is the part that is apparently disputed. If you, while in PRE with a mav tracking and a valid GMTT, position the DMS down, the SOI will switch to the FCR. According to the manual, the mav will return to slave at that point (or bore depending on mode). According to an unnamed source, the mav will remain in slew mode at that point, unless and until a mastermode change is commanded.
So I suppose there is some disagreement there. The manual in question may not relate to the same aircraft as the source is familiar with. The manual may be wrong. The source may be wrong. I think those three possibilities, are the only three?
Not knowing the source, I cannot know its accuracy. This is the wikipedia problem! The manual is certainly capable of mistakes, and given the wide range of F-16s and F-16 variations, its entirely possible that both the source and the manual are correct, depending on which F-16 you are discussing.
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This post is deleted! -
What dose the manual say exactly ?
Rolling in for a RofTFM, the BMS Dash 34 A/G HOTAS guide on page 18 indicates precisely the behavior I would expect - the the DMS does nothing but change the SOI; up for HUD, down for left/right MFD. In which case the missile should go to SLAVE unless it is the SOI, and dependent on which MFD is is being displayed on.
OTOH, the TMS operates the missile - as I would expect. TMS left changes AGM track modes, and TMS down undesignates and returns all sensors (including MAV) to SLAVE.
If the missile is doing something other than this, or if the TMS/DMS operations are somehow fouled…I would consider that a bug. But I’d double check my callback assignments before I did so…because the above sounds perfectly correct to me.
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TMS down returns the missile to slew in BMS, not to slave. If the BMS manual says it should return to slave, that would be a mistake.