Step Time
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With what I said above in mind, as my humble two cents, I would say a default of 25-30 may be a slightly better compromise, considering that not every jet has EGI (iirc), and this time also includes taxi time.
What does it change? …
EGI or not … even if the IRS is taking 8 to 10min for alignment, it is no factor as it doesn’t prevent you from continuing other check items! … you do not to wait the IRS to be aligned to setup your a/c …!(!?)
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The checklist we use has 11 pages of checks before getting to the INS/IRS/EGI. 5 minutes before setting EGI to align is not that uncommon. Add another 10 minutes to get INS aligned completely, and you only have 5 more minutes to taxi out, do your checks and take off on time. It can work, but it’s pretty tight. Adding 5 or 10 more minutes to the schedule gives you some breathing room.
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Keep in mind that you already know what you’re doing.
Fair enough, and we teach our recruits to reach that goal as well
I’ve been told that in the real Belgian Air Force, OCU pilots take about 60 minutes for their ramp start, even for a basic nav flight. Once pilots get more proficient with the way things work, and especially once they’re assigned to their combat units, they should/can do it in 20-30 minutes, regardless of mission.
fair enough as well - but that’s excatly what I said in my first message
to further emphasize as well, I can start the BMS F-16 in a minimum of time because I’m experienced, but I do still like/need 45minutes when I preflight, step and start a Diamond DA-20 eclipse for real. My IP can do it in a glimpse, and we both follow the same checklists.
So I don’t need convincing that it’s indeed a question of experienceIn our virtual squadron, we use a real Belgian OCU checklist, with some minor adjustments to BMS, and found that the default 20 is not enough to still make the take-off time (in fact, in the first few flights, even our most experienced pilots needed up to 45 minutes to complete everything),
so we decided to set RampMinutes to 30. That way we have approximately 15-25 to get the jet checked, running and checked again, with enough time left to taxi to EOR, do some more checks (plus wait a few minutes, if necessary) and line up at take-off time.That’s indeed why you have the config option line available.
On the other side of the coin, you can’t really impose 45 minutes to all the BMS community because YOU fly the MLU with BAF checklists
Once again, that’s the beauty of ther config line optionIMHO the default 20 minutes is just a perfect compromise With what I said above in mind, as my humble two cents, I would say a default of 25-30 may be a slightly better compromise, considering that not every jet has EGI (iirc), and this time also includes taxi time.
No it might be a better compromise for you and your own VFW use, but not for the community at large which is used to the ramp 18-20 minutes since 1998
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The checklist we use has 11 pages of checks before getting to the INS/IRS/EGI. 5 minutes before setting EGI to align is not that uncommon. Add another 10 minutes to get INS aligned completely, and you only have 5 more minutes to taxi out, do your checks and take off on time. It can work, but it’s pretty tight. Adding 5 or 10 more minutes to the schedule gives you some breathing room.
From entering the cockpit until IRS alignment start, you should need about 30s max to review the initial cockpit setup (Before start check-list => a quick glance from right to left should be enough to check that important switches are in the right position.) … need about 1min max to set your BAT ON with PGM checks, set your lights on, air source to norm, Backup radio to Both and vol on comm1 and comm2 … hit the JFS and 30s after your main gen is on-line you can put directly your IRS in align mod. Honestly, 2min
I do really not see why you need 5min!? … but even 5min … you need 8min for IRS to be aligned (during this time you have all the opportunity to perform all EPU and FLCS check plus DED/ICP/MFD/WPN setup), we are at 13, you still have 7min left before take-off.
Try to think where you can save time … trims check can be performed during taxi for example.With a little but more practice, you will see that 20min is waaay enough in 90% of the cases as said by RD. And in the remaining 10%, you can easily postpone some items for later (during ingress to the hold or in the holding before push) such as WPN setup, IDM assignments, MFD specific setup, DED modes … etc … those are not mandatory prior the departure.
Anyway, you can set your own values as seen above. Personally I do not think the default 20min should be changed in stock install.
EDIT: sorry for this pointless post, Red Dog gave a similar reply.
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Hm, if 20 minutes are not enough, you can press pause and wait as long as you want… ?
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Just cannot understand why anyone would want to sit around for an extra 40mins doing nothing… do you really have that much time on your hands?
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I discovered that in 12 months of BMS flying, I accumulated a 40 hour difference between logbook time in BMS (counts all time in 3D) and logbook time I track externally (counting time from wheels up to wheels down).
40 hours of simulating sitting in a jet, starting it up and taxiing…!! I dont regret it though. I guess some of us dont have the time to do that - or just dont want to / arent interested in that.
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I most certainly do. The single most common reason private pilots kill themselves is saying “eh, I know the airplane well enough that I don’t need checklists anymore”. This was drilled into my head by my instructor on the C150, a much simpler airplane than the F-16.
Oh, and don’t call me Shirley.
Sure, go through the appropriate checklists, but surely not ALL of them? Do you go through the emergency procedures checklist? What about the formations checklist? Even on the main checklists, do you go through the descent/final/shutdown/hotpit refuel bits DURING startup? So I ask you again, what exactly are you doing in the extra 20-40 minutes? What checklists do you go through?
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@Red:
On the other side of the coin, you can’t really impose 45 minutes to all the BMS community because YOU fly the MLU with BAF checklists
True.
From entering the cockpit until IRS alignment start, you should need about 30s max to review the initial cockpit setup (Before start check-list => a quick glance from right to left should be enough to check that important switches are in the right position.) … need about 1min max to set your BAT ON with PGM checks, set your lights on, air source to norm, Backup radio to Both and vol on comm1 and comm2 … hit the JFS and 30s after your main gen is on-line you can put directly your IRS in align mod. Honestly, 2min
I do really not see why you need 5min!? … but even 5min … you need 8min for IRS to be aligned (during this time you have all the opportunity to perform all EPU and FLCS check plus DED/ICP/MFD/WPN setup), we are at 13, you still have 7min left before take-off.
Try to think where you can save time … trims check can be performed during taxi for example.To put it bluntly, that depends on how realistic you want to go, and I am fully aware this is up to every individual or group to decide.
In BMS as it is now, 95% of the cockpit switches are in the same position every time you enter the jet, and you can indeed enable everything the moment you have power. In real life, however, cockpit switch position may vary for whatever reason, and the SEC and EPU checks could create electrical spikes, which may fry your avionics, so those are best done prior starting anything related to avionics. That’s how we come to 5 minutes so easily.
I know these kind of things are not yet (properly) simulated, but as BMS is continuously improving towards realism, we took the decision for our VFS to already implement realistic procedures. That way, when BMS does come up with realism features like random switch positions or “SEC check has a 1/x chance of resulting in avionics faults” (this one is probably still WAY far off, but you get the idea), we do not have to adjust again.
In the following video, Faan does a startup completely according to a previous version of the checklist (so you may notice some slight errors here and there). He takes a bit longer than usual for display purposes, and admittedly, most of us don’t simulate ground crew interaction every time we fly, but he needs about 20 minutes to be ready-to-taxi, and what time he loses in this video, would probably be required to fit into the traffic flow of a campaign or busy TE. As such, I dare say it’s a good representation of how long a ramp start takes in real life.
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Why not just assign AI pilots earlier? If nothing else, it would add realism, since pilots don’t find out what mission they’re flying 30 minutes before takeoff. It would also mean that folks like myself could get into the jet sooner. By leaving the default ramp time at 20 minutes, everyone would be happy, right?
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Do you realize the eternity spent on the cockpit check in that vid!?! A RL student would receive a kick in the but!
In real life, however, cockpit switch position may vary for whatever reason, and the SEC and EPU checks could create electrical spikes, which may fry your avionics, so those are best done prior starting anything related to avionics. That’s how we come to 5 minutes so easily.
Come on, you are talking about real life, I perfectly know this Eagle.
But it doesn’t take 5min (five minutes!!!). Lets say that a fresh OCU student pilot will need 5min for his first or 2nd flight of his life on F-16, but if a regular pilot still need 5 complete minutes to check each switches prior start-up, it is because he fly less than 5h per years! Again, check are known by heart and are executed like a recitation, much faster than what you see on any YT video.
As I said, I quick glance do not take more than 30s to ensure that EACH switches is in the right position, no need to touch and spend 2s on each.Okay, 25min gives maybe more comfort, but IRL, you rarely work comfortably.
But this discussion is fly funking, if you need 25 or 40, in the sim you have all opportunity to set use the dedicated option.
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Take control of all squadrons at the airfield you are flying out of and schedule flights far enough apart so that you can take as much time as you like on the ramp. Stay off the tower comms to avoid ATC bitching and just use ATC for landing.
No reason to make everyone do it same as those who want to spend an hour on the ramp. Not being critical here, but until I retire from my full-time job in another 20ish years, this just robs me of precious flying time.
As it currently stands, I can ramp in the bunker at Osan (super long taxi), check/activate switches, step out on the porch for a 1/2 cigarette while the INS aligns, and still make it to EOR with 2 mins. till T.O. as long as DTC is setup for the mission I’m flying.
Edit : Above sggestion won’t work with AI as Flight Leader.
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In BMS as it is now, 95% of the cockpit switches are in the same position every time you enter the jet, and you can indeed enable everything the moment you have power. In real life, however, cockpit switch position may vary for whatever reason, and the SEC and EPU checks could create electrical spikes, which may fry your avionics, so those are best done prior starting anything related to avionics. That’s how we come to 5 minutes so easily.
I know these kind of things are not yet (properly) simulated, but as BMS is continuously improving towards realism, we took the decision for our VFS to already implement realistic procedures. That way, when BMS does come up with realism features like random switch positions or “SEC check has a 1/x chance of resulting in avionics faults” (this one is probably still WAY far off, but you get the idea), we do not have to adjust again.
Actually the switches IRL should always be in the same position. It is called switchology. If the A/C doesn’t have all the switches in the same spot then someone messed up. It is actually very important for a PC. It is one of their most important duties when pre flight is done. After a while you can look in the cockpit and see in a second or two if any switch is out of place. The rule of thumb is off or normal but that isn’t how it is done. Every switch has a designated position it should be in when the pilot gets in the A/C. It is not questionable. It is either correct or it isn’t.
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Actually the switches IRL should always be in the same position. It is called switchology. If the A/C doesn’t have all the switches in the same spot then someone messed up. It is actually very important for a PC. It is one of their most important duties when pre flight is done. After a while you can look in the cockpit and see in a second or two if any switch is out of place. The rule of thumb is off or normal but that isn’t how it is done. Every switch has a designated position it should be in when the pilot gets in the A/C. It is not questionable. It is either correct or it isn’t.
This is one of the things that gets me about BMS defaults sometimes seem counter-intuitive to how I think the switches would be set. For instance all the volumes being turned down. Why would they all be turned off? A lot of room for Murphy there. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten into a aircraft with all the comms volumes off, but maybe those silly fighter pilots do something different. I know you can bypass that with saving your cockpit config with alt+c then s IIRC, but I think my personal .key prevents that from working.
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I don’t think I’ve ever gotten into a aircraft with all the comms volumes off, but maybe those silly fighter pilots do something different.
Look carefully …
Your are a bit harsh with those silly pilots.
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Actually the switches IRL should always be in the same position. It is called switchology. If the A/C doesn’t have all the switches in the same spot then someone messed up. It is actually very important for a PC. It is one of their most important duties when pre flight is done. After a while you can look in the cockpit and see in a second or two if any switch is out of place. The rule of thumb is off or normal but that isn’t how it is done. Every switch has a designated position it should be in when the pilot gets in the A/C. It is not questionable. It is either correct or it isn’t.
Granted, but if you dont check and just assume, one day it is gonna bite you in the butt. Cockpit interior check, then followed by a verify check - even though you yourself should have just set and checked those switches correctly. Its not about being able to assume things, its about things being verifiably so.
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On 09/11/2001 was the first and only time (as of yet) the fast align GPS nav system was used. The two f-16 scrambled in like 5 minutes (unarmed they were told to basically fly into the last remaining hijacked plane) and yes an emergency situation is different.
I say this because as awesome it would be to do simulated walk arounds and all that the 20 minutes that we have (generally) more than suffices in my opinion. That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t like to go for as real as possible.
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Look carefully …
Your are a bit harsh with those silly pilots.
Hehe, several of the volumes are left on. Also judging by the 3 color desert camo pants and very short shot of the MFD reflection showing a headset and not a helmet, I would bet this guy is ground crew not a pilot
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This is one of the things that gets me about BMS defaults sometimes seem counter-intuitive to how I think the switches would be set. For instance all the volumes being turned down. Why would they all be turned off? A lot of room for Murphy there. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten into a aircraft with all the comms volumes off, but maybe those silly fighter pilots do something different. I know you can bypass that with saving your cockpit config with alt+c then s IIRC, but I think my personal .key prevents that from working.
I used to move all switches and knobs in the pit during inspection. Why? Because one day a pilot was able to pull off a UHF radio knob during launch and I felt like an idiot for not checking it and tightening the set screw. So, I would go in the pit and starting with the test panel, I would pull up on every knob and set to off, auto or normal. This would also make sure the panel was secured, some times they to come loose.