Mainly for Mav-JP - 12 degrees stick axes offset
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Are you sure that the real stick is not aligned with the real sensors below?
I’m 100% sure, there are no doubts about that. The stick is NOT rotated. Real F16:
That’s the physical problem to implement it and tha’s why I thought about a software solution.
Cheers
Tulkas
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Basically he is saying that in the real F16 when you move the stick purely FWD you got a mix between fwd and roll
We are not talking about a base or stick rotation here but a mixing of axisSo in our sim , two ways to do it
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keep base and stick aligned and rotate internally the sensors
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creat a software axis mixing
I would vote 2 if I had to do it
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Thanks for showing up Mav.
Well, from your answer I get you consider it should be not that hard (at lest less hard than a hardware modification) but doesn’t look it could get in the BMS agenda. Fair enough, I understand we are quite a tiny minority inside the BMS users and there are much greater priorities.
Anyways, at least I leave the idea in the air and maybe some of the bright minds which are around in the forums catch it up and try to make a small external software or BMS mod. It’s a small detail but is nevertheless pushing in the direction of even more realism for our sim.
Cheers
Tulkas
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Hey Mav-JP
If there is going to some SW solution for that, then think of a solution where we can choose if we want that on or off. I have the real stick and base and it works great as the way it is now.
In some replica designs there was a misunderstanding of the 12 degree and then they rotated that stick with the sensors 12 degree and then you end up with an angled ofset stick pos, and that feels wieard, but you get use to it.
Its absolutely not a problem I think.I dont know how those real sensors is calibrated, but if I push/pull picth up and down direct 12/6 o´clock then I dont get a mix here, so it might be calibrated so that when you really pull hard then you tend to move the stick into your body and then the calibration of the 12 degree kicks in and compensate for that. (really dont know)
Basic I Dont think its a problem for us pitbuilders, but it sure is good to know how it works.
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Basically he is saying that in the real F16 when you move the stick purely FWD you got a mix between fwd and roll
So, you are saying it is how things are in real F-16?
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Hey Mav-JP
If there is going to some SW solution for that, then think of a solution where we can choose if we want that on or off. I have the real stick and base and it works great as the way it is now.
In some replica designs there was a misunderstanding of the 12 degree and then they rotated that stick with the sensors 12 degree and then you end up with an angled ofset stick pos, and that feels wieard, but you get use to it.
Its absolutely not a problem I think.I dont know how those real sensors is calibrated, but if I push/pull picth up and down direct 12/6 o´clock then I dont get a mix here, so it might be calibrated so that when you really pull hard then you tend to move the stick into your body and then the calibration of the 12 degree kicks in and compensate for that. (really dont know)
Basic I Dont think its a problem for us pitbuilders, but it sure is good to know how it works.
so you are saying that the real stick does not have this 12 deg mix between axis ?
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Yes.
I know the transducers is offset 12 degree, but I cant feel it or see it in the cougar viewer.I will test more extensive tonight and let you know, but so far it just feels perfect, I will try to pull really hard on the pitch up and see if there is a mix there.
NB. We all know the ergonomic reason and teori for the 12 degree CW rotation of the transducers, but how they are calibrated we dont know, and I dont think no one inhere knows.
So we might be guessing here.It could be that the transducers are put there those 12 degree due to manufacturing/engeneering reasons and then they are calibrated to work logic fwd/aft Roll L and R
It could also be that it was due to in the old days when pilots came from a normal moving stick in other jets, that there was a little movement in the new F-16 stick and then they tend to pull it into them self.
but now days the stick is total stiff (can be adjusted in the buttom of the stickbase)Im just guessing here, but some engeneer must know
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Yes.
I know the transducers is offset 12 degree, but I cant feel it or see it in the cougar viewer.I will test more extensive tonight and let you know, but so far it just feels perfect, I will try to pull really hard on the pitch up and see if there is a mix there.
NB. We all know the ergonomic reason and teori for the 12 degree CW rotation of the transducers, but how they are calibrated we dont know, and I dont think no one inhere knows.
So we might be guessing here.It could be that the transducers are put there those 12 degree due to manufacturing/engeneering reasons and then they are calibrated to work logic fwd/aft Roll L and R
It could also be that it was due to in the old days when pilots came from a normal moving stick in other jets, that there was a little movement in the new F-16 stick and then they tend to pull it into them self.
but now days the stick is total stiff (can be adjusted in the buttom of the stickbase)Im just guessing here, but some engeneer must know
could be that the offsset is there for manufacuring reasons and that electronics behind apply the opposite mixing (weird tough)
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I´d like so much to know how it works for real. Just out if plain curiosity.
I quote another owner of a real F16 SCC:
I can assure you that when you press with one finger the lines in foxy are not 12/6 . Before i knew of the 12 degr i thought my SSC was broken or something.
And yet another gut using the real F16 SCC:
To answer your question, you think you are pulling straight back, but you are actually pulling in toward your stomach at about 12 degrees.
Cheers
Tulkas
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Gents, I have tested again
Tested very firmly again, and my stick works straight 12, 3, 6 and 9 o’clock, Just like you would suppose it to work IF you didn’t knew about the 12 degree transducers offset.
Don’t even know if the pilots know that, I would expect NOT, and they just push/pull the stick and the jet react as they would expect it to.
So we might be confused by some smart engineering here
I also guess there is many things in the F-16 we would scratch our head with, just by looking at it and then try to make a conclusion.Just my 2 cents
But I will dig more……me need some answers.
NB. and the 12 degree transducers offset is definitely NOT something you as pilot shall think about.
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Gents!
One thing there came into my mind here is:on the real stick base there is 2 x 4 transducers and we as pit builders only use one in the pitch and one in the roll.
It could be that some other pit builders have taken one of the transducers there have the offset calibration and there for they get the pitch/roll mix, and I have taken another one.
(All those transducers work in a mix of each other I think)All those transducers is connected to different FLCS systems as backup in the jet, so that if the jet gets a bullet in one, two or tree of those FLCS areas then the stick control still works. ALL four must be taken out before you loose stick control.
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Gents, I have tested again
Tested very firmly again, and my stick works straight 12, 3, 6 and 9 o’clock, Just like you would suppose it to work IF you didn’t knew about the 12 degree transducers offset.
Don’t even know if the pilots know that, I would expect NOT, and they just push/pull the stick and the jet react as they would expect it to.
So we might be confused by some smart engineering here
I also guess there is many things in the F-16 we would scratch our head with, just by looking at it and then try to make a conclusion.Just my 2 cents
But I will dig more……me need some answers.
NB. and the 12 degree transducers offset is definitely NOT something you as pilot shall think about.
question. how is your SSC connected to your PC? is it being connected to a cougar PCB, then to the PC as normal?
Gents!
One thing there came into my mind here is:on the real stick base there is 2 x 4 transducers and we as pit builders only use one in the pitch and one in the roll.
It could be that some other pit builders have taken one of the transducers there have the offset calibration and there for they get the pitch/roll mix, and I have taken another one.
(All those transducers work in a mis of each other I think)I am not familiar with the brevity “mis”, are you suggesting that some of the transducers are grossly offset from the others axes and when they are averaged, the result is a 12 degree offset? if so, that seems unlikely to me, as the point of having the 4 transducer pairs is to have quadruple redundancy… and that would provide only dual redundancy.
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Can it be that you got it from an A model? Don´t quote me on that but I think I have read that the rotation was introduced in the C/MLU.
Cheers
Tulkas
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I think Mine is from an A-model, but I also think I remember that I looked into it and the transducers were offset, but not sure, and I will not take mine apart to look
The other questions about redundant of that system, I can guarantee that hose systems is redundant, got it from my friend and he is crew chef on the F-16.
And my Stickbase is connected to 2 SCHAEVITZ ATA-101 ANALOG TRANSDUCER AMPLIFIER
link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCHAEVITZ-ATA-101-ANALOG-TRANSDUCER-AMPLIFIER-ATA101-/261315362178?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item3cd79bfd82
And then to the the cougar PCB´s that I have moved into a metal box , so that one wire from my stick base and one wire from my TQS system to that box and the ATA-101@BW, mis = mix
Sorry -
Can it be that you got it from an A model? Don´t quote me on that but I think I have read that the rotation was introduced in the C/MLU.
Cheers
Tulkas
something else to muddy the waters with:
http://www.jetfighters.dk/back/F16sim.htm
at the top, the page notes that
The instructor pilot (IP) had warned me in advance that many pilots have the tendency to pull the stick towards themselves instead of pulling it backwards when they want a pitch-up response from the aircraft, thus resulting in a pitch & left-roll response from the aircraft instead of pitch-only, so I was careful not to do so.
also at the bottom…
Many thanks to Flt.Lt. “SAM”; RDAF F16 solo display pilot, F16 Instructor pilot & Weapons instructor, for all the help and time, making this day the best day of my life so far. He gave me a personalised tour of the base, the squadron he flies in, the aircraft, the hangars and introduced me to some great people.
Also many thanks to Jan (the bastard in the control room), simulator technician and instructor, for his great assistance and support in the simulator.
Also many thanks to ‘LUN’ and the other F16 conversion student pilots for some good words of wisdom and suggestions.
Thanks for the much needed inspiration!
no clue which variant of F-16 this would be simulating and its accuracy, however if the instructor was an RDAF pilot one would expect them to know what they are talking about….
EDIT: further muddying of the waters
Electrical/Force Characteristics
- Standard configuration has a pre-programmed linear response for the pitch and roll axis that spans a DC output range of +0.5 Volts to +4.5Volts
- Center no-load voltage is 2.5 volts
- Forces applied to the grip will translate directly to a linear voltage
- Asymmetric grip displacement mimics actual F-15 Block 52 transducer mechanical movement
that is taken from here: http://aerotronicsllc.com/f16ssc.htm
I am not sure if they are experts or anything though… they only build USAF trainers…
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God find BW, and yes the water gets more muddy.
I guess we need to pull some strings here and get in contact with someone who knows it.
But I think we are close herethe paragraph: Electrical/Force Characteristics
That is how the ATA-101 also works, you adjust it from 0 to 5 v with center of 2,5 V
I have adjusted mine from 0 - 4V with center of 2V then I have a margin to the Max 5V (if I go over 5V I could fry the Cougar pcb, thats why, just safety) -
well iirc the RDAF operate A models?
the aerotronics quote contradicts the supposed RDAF one, but if Tulkas is correct in that this was a later modification, then they could both be correct.
need a source who can corroborate this one way or another for sure.
I reckon if you used the armrest provided, it would be fairly easy to fly the aircraft with axes aligned to the aircraft.
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here is some pictures of the stick base and the 8 transducers + my cougar box.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j8bfobr2vrwlbgg/MRp4zihrpV
Kukki
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FWIW, you could implement this offset with the TARGET software if you are using that rather than changing BMS code. The command is RotateDXAxis. See page 13 of the Script Editor manual. http://ts.thrustmaster.com/download/accessories/pc/hotas/software/TARGET/TARGET_Script_Editor_Basics_v1.5_ENG.pdf
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FWIW, you could implement this offset with the TARGET software if you are using that rather than changing BMS code. The command is RotateDXAxis. See page 13 of the Script Editor manual. http://ts.thrustmaster.com/download/accessories/pc/hotas/software/TARGET/TARGET_Script_Editor_Basics_v1.5_ENG.pdf
That is smart, but don’t use TARGET, but some might be using it