Falcon 4 has new owners …... VR Headsets imminent.... Falcon VR?
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Do a search on these fora as there are a few threads regarding VR.
The main point that I remember is that VR is not a great solution as you cannot see any input devices (actual MFD’s, keyboard, knobs and switches) with goggles on.
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TIR is still King.
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I just received my EDTracker…bye-bye, TIR. Proud I never knew ya…
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I just received my EDTracker…bye-bye, TIR. Proud I never knew ya…
I’ve considered EDtracker too to get rid of the camera etc, but 3DOF vs 6DOF still doesn’t cut it for me until I have a full scale real pit in place.
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Don’t underestimate infrared devices. They’re not designed to be immersive, but have a real impact on efficiency in a sim like F4.
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I just received my EDTracker…bye-bye, TIR. Proud I never knew ya…
What makes you proud of that?
Really dont understand- missing positional tracking would even be a no-go for me.
But -reardless of tracking device- head tracking in front of a monitor never was an optimal solution for me. HMDs could give some more for immersion. Will see how it goes. -
I really, really don’t like TIR because it’s use depends on making unnatural head and eye movements. I have some continuing involvement and experience with trainers that have full 360 degree visual systems and devices like TIR negatively train me against operations in those systems. The effect isn’t notable unless you are moving back and forth between the two…I have a scheme in mind for using my EDTracker (which is far smaller than I was expecting it to be, for some reason) with my own cockpit build to try and minimize this problem - but we’ll see how that actually works out.
The only way I can think EDTracker could be better would be if it were wireless…and I can think of a way to hack that, if I buy another one as a kit version instead of the Pro version I have now.
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I’ve considered EDtracker too to get rid of the camera etc, but 3DOF vs 6DOF still doesn’t cut it for me until I have a full scale real pit in place.
Fair comment. I specifically don’t want features like zoom in preparation for training to my own full cockpit build, so 3DOF is just fine for my considerations. Given my previous observation you will find that there is a good deal of habit pattern to be broken in moving from a flat screen (even a big one) to a full or partial surrounding visual field. In fact, my scheme is to only use the EDTracker in a single axis, for up/downlook enhancement in the endgame…but I’m also considering using it to build a head tracking platform for a single projector - I’ve flown a domed trainer that worked that way and it was one of the single best I’ve experienced. But it takes a lot of throw distance to do that…so I’m back to thinking single or two axis platform - yaw/tilt.
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TIR? $heeeeeit my *****, that’s all you had to say!
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TrackIR, or the DIY version that costs less than $10, can be calibrated to respond to very sensitive deliberate head movements while ignoring slight unintentional movements. If you adjust sensitivity, you’d be surprised how little you actually have to move your head. People seem to think you have to throw your head around and roll your eyes like Stevie Wonder… it isn’t like that at all.
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@wax:
TrackIR, or the DIY version that costs less than $10, can be calibrated to respond to very sensitive deliberate head movements while ignoring slight unintentional movements. If you adjust sensitivity, you’d be surprised how little you actually have to move your head. People seem to think you have to throw your head around and roll your eyes like Stevie Wonder… it isn’t like that at all.
…you do in the real world, and that’s exactly why I can’t stand TIR. I’ve had to re-learn to actually turn my head past the 90 to line up on a runway in the trainers. Like you have to do in RL.
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TIR is completely intuitive. I don’t understand why anyone would have trouble using it.
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Took me minutes and I was used to TIR. Now flying without it is a no go for me.
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I follow both sides
TIR was a game changer for me and I do not fly without it.
But Stevie is right. TIR creates muscle memory and reflexes that are unnatural. A while ago I was able to try out a full scale pit with a large projector and curved screen and I had to rally think hard and force myself to actually look to my left to keep formation for example. I automatically just turned my head for a few degrees and kept looking to the forward part of the pit out of TIR habit. Very annoying!
So if you are a desktop flyer, TIR is no doubt a must in my opinion, but if you move to a setup with peripheral view, it’s quit the opposite. -
No need to bash TIR.
The issues Stevie has are simply due to the fact that he has 360° view.
99.9% of the crowd here don’t.Considering the above It’s pretty obvious that TIR must amplify head movement to keep a visual on a tiny screen covering 20% of our Field of view
So no need to take one very very specific application to bash the TIR. That hardware for many of users has been one of the most immersive one. I really wouldn’t know how to enjoy BMS without TIR.But Stevie is right. TIR creates muscle memory and reflexes that are unnatural
I have zero probem switching from TIR to real flying head movement. No brainer. I don’t buy the muscle memory stuff. How would all real pilots here cope with it then.?
I can be at 10am in the sim pit and at 1pm in the real aicraft and I never ever had trouble looking where I wanted to look because of the previous SIM with TIR.
I really don’t understand that argument. If I want to look at my left flap. I just turn my head till I see it. No halfaway and then wondering why I don’t see it -
@Red:
I have zero probem switching from TIR to real flying head movement. No brainer. I don’t buy the muscle memory stuff. How would all real pilots here cope with it then.?
+1000
To be honest, before I tested it for the first time I was also reluctant, and thinking the same (argument)…. mostly because I saw pics and videos from BMS partners, using a single small screen (sometimes a small laptop)… Those crossed neck-eyeballs twists were weird…
… but one you tested it, it´s not a big deal. I´m also fortunate to have a setup with three big screens as visual (as many already have), and I don´t have to turn my eyes anywere… Even with stock configuration (profile) of the TIR, when I look at the center of one of the side monitors, I´m almost looking backwards… so no need to turn eyes… just turn my head…
Still sometimes, for meetings etc, I have to move with only one screen… Less SA… less inmersión… no problem at all, and of course, Never Ever experienced any trouble in RL.
Anyway… everyone is invited to show off his likes and dislikes… that´s why colors were made for… no need to critic or defend anything… just share your experience.
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@Red:
No need to bash TIR.
The issues Stevie has are simply due to the fact that he has 360° view.
99.9% of the crowd here don’t.I’m not bashing, as said earlier, I understand both sides and I never fly if my TIR isn’t working.
@Red:
That hardware for many of users has been one of the most immersive one. I really wouldn’t know how to enjoy BMS without TIR.
Agreed, it’s the first thing I recommend a new comer in the sqn.
@Red:
I have zero probem switching from TIR to real flying head movement. No brainer. I don’t buy the muscle memory stuff. How would all real pilots here cope with it then.?
I can be at 10am in the sim pit and at 1pm in the real aicraft and I never ever had trouble looking where I wanted to look because of the previous SIM with TIR.
I really don’t understand that argument. If I want to look at my left flap. I just turn my head till I see it. No halfaway and then wondering why I don’t see itCalling it muscle memory or bad habits or something else I don’t care, I just know for a fact I personally have a very hard time adjusting switching between the 2 situations. But I even have that problem when just watching a normal movie. When I wonder what’s happening lower or to a side outside the screen I’ve found myself tilting my head as I would with TIR in BMS to get another POV, which obviously doesn’t work
Maybe some people are more prone to such bad habits compared to others. -
The main point that I remember is that VR is not a great solution as you cannot see any input devices (actual MFD’s, keyboard, knobs and switches) with goggles on.
exactly.
VR is better for hybrid sim/arcade games. Or BMS AA engagements/dogfight matches.
Even in DCS A10C where mastermode and weapon cycling (HOTAS mapping) is IMHO more streamlined, VR is manageable. But in BMS, where mavericks require boresighting/ SPI needs reset after deployment/ A-G modes managed in MFDs and and MFD buttons are pressed way more often, VR can be a hassle to the point where you can’t fly combat missions.
Maybe augmented reality could solve the problem, wherein you still have an eyes down view of your keyboard. Just a thought. -
The HTC vive has a front facing camera that should allow you to look out of your headset while keeping it on (over the game itself).
I have no clue if it will allow you to make out small details but it’s somewhat of a solution. -
TIR’s “unrealistic head movement” is a totally bogus argument. Just as it only takes moments to learn via “muscle memory”, so it also takes only moments to “unlearn” when using a different paradigm.