Stop talking about flying online and get your butt airborne!
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@Red:
…. I know some guys who aren’t pilot but who know better about airplane than some pilots
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I don’t take that to mean flying procedure necessarily. But about systems and mechanical functionalities.
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Theory can never beat Practical application… Sorry, but engineers know how to engineer an aircraft, pilots knows how to fly an aicraft. that’s it. And Simmers can not beat a real world pilot, in any sort of theoritical or pratical knowledge, in any way of sort in aviation. It’s like making a statement telling that Call of Duty keyboard warriors can enlist at any time in the Navy Seals and can beat them at the range… come on…:rofl:
I don’t agree with everything you’re saying in it’s entirety, I know the experience that Red Dog is speaking from and he is not saying what you are saying. If you know something, you know something and on the flip side of the coin, you don’t know what you don’t know. While obviously a real world pilot is in general going to be completely rounded in knowledge particularly when you get to CPL and ATP levels, that doesn’t make them better than anyone or all time superior in theory or practical knowledge. They are still human and hopefully a humble pilot (aviation and egos don’t mix), we never stop being student pilots, even after you receive your license. Remember the old saying your pilot’s license is a license to learn? Same thing here my friend, never stop learning.
There are definitely examples where technically a sim pilot may know more than the real pilot and vice versa, I don’t think you can make it such a concrete distinction. Nobody is a master of everything, but you can get pretty close to it. There will always be something you don’t know, there will always be someone better than you, and to say that just because someone is a sim pilot vs a real pilot doesn’t mean that one is better than the other, they are both pursuing the same thing: more knowledge, more skill, and hopefully passion in what they do.
Another thing I’d like to mention, when you’re bringing these modern home flight sims into the equation, they’re starting to get to a level of fidelity and reality that you actually can train to the same levels that our real world counterparts are reaching. Falcon BMS 4.33, P3D, and some of the latest releases of DCS are proving this. In our wing we study the books pretty extensively and for the most part we have found that the procedures in the book work surprisingly the same in the simulator. That is thanks in large part to the hard work and fidelity of the Falcon BMS team who no doubt either through their own experiences as pilots (both sim and real life), through consultation of experts as well as documentation over the years, have actually pushed this simulator to levels nearing where it could be argued to be at or near a “professional training simulator.” You more or less have an extreme high accuracy flight model, a solid weather engine, even with all the gripes and moans a rock solid terrain and autogen system, good modeling of weapons, good modeling of avionics (not perfect or completely accurate to all Blocks, but still!) that allows you to become very proficient, simulate as much or as little as you want.
You brought up briefings as well, you can and we do absolutely brief/plan these flights to some pretty detailed levels, even details as small as aircraft performance (takeoff/landing speeds, climb speeds, enroute speeds), instrument procedures, air traffic control, airspace restrictions, ROE, and even more. It is absolutely endless what you can get out of this simulator, it ultimately what you get out of this simulator is up to one person: the end user. Some of us (in fact a lot of us) are real pilots on top of being sim pilots so we bring even more experience into the simulator, which pushes realism to even higher levels.
Finally food for thought: your expert pilot (the one that no sim pilot could challenge on knowledge or practical application) who is type rated will suddenly no longer be an expert anymore if he switches aircraft types and has to go through ground school all over again for that particular type rating. He never lost his skill or knowledge as it relates to airmanship, but he is definitely not an expert on the new type rating. The same can be said here, you can give me a 20,000 hour plus airline captain and I can absolutely promise you that he will have a hard time (at least initially) keeping up with a “CMR” pilot and flying the F-16 the way it is supposed to be flown. This is just like a type rating and if you want to master it, you better study it, don’t assume that a “real pilot” will be able to outshine a “sim pilot” in this particular community, that’s a recipe for hurt feelings of inadequacy I promise.
One penny + One penny.
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I don’t take that to mean flying procedure necessarily. But about systems and mechanical functionalities.
I think they can become more or less equal in some respects, but never you can never certify that a sim pilot is more knowledgeable than a real pilot that’s for certain. Like I said, once you know something you know it and flying as complex as it is, end of the day if you do x procedure you’ll receive y as a result, that’s all there is to it. So there’s no grand superiority other than he’s done it in a real aircraft, you’ve done it in a simulator aircraft, but end of the day you’re doing the same thing.
The biggest razor in all of this: professional pilots train on flight simulators. If there were no viable benefits to simulating flight (which obviously there are) then pilot’s wouldn’t do it. It’s because they can build the same exact skills in the simulator that they can in real airplane at a fraction of the costs. That’s the whole point, know what I’m saying?
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Everyone is welcome to fly in pickups! Events you should have some baseline of competency - pretty low standards compared to other VFS though, and we don’t have any “Tests.”
However I tried to not to make this video a recruitment video for my squadron - it’s more of a general call to the guys who won’t fly with others unless they are perfect from the get-go. However, it’s not possible! It’s not even possible to be perfect years afterwards, and thousands of flight hours later!
Once new folks realize no one is expecting them to be gods - and that they will surely suck no matter how much prep they make, everyone can relax and enjoy themselves!
I think you succeeded with respect to not turning your video into a recruitment vid for UOAF. I think your video is spot on in terms of taking the leap. And you are spot on about learning. Doesn’t matter whether its a game or a sim or a sport or a job or whatever, you want to associate yourself with folks that are really good at what they do and you will get better yourself. So yeah, completely on board with your vid. I think you were clear that if one virtual squadron wasn’t right for you, another should be. Which is so true.
What I am saying is that your video is inviting but UOAF (if you review the SOPs and ideals) may be being misinterpreted not only by potential recruits, but just plain old guest flyers. I personally interpreted all that I read, plus the lack of any formalized familiarization process as that UOAF expected individual pilots to put in a little competency elbow grease before bugging members. Wrong or right, that was my overall impression. Which I am completely okay with, even though I wanted to go multiplayer familiarization flying the day I setup a guest account over there. To be fair some posted about not worrying about my skills, but after reading a bunch of the SOPs I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t going to be pissing off any UOAF veterans by being a noob knucklehead. And so, even though your vid isn’t about UOAF in particular, I just wanted to let you know that some of your frustration with new guys not getting up in the air the day they say hi over at UOAF may be partially – and only partially – self-inflicted. I hope that make sense and hope to be flying with you all soon.
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A pilot does not train to pilot on a simulator, he or she practices switchology, reflexology, repeat procedure and trains to manage failures. I pretty much used professional simulators in the air force, but honestly, I never learned how to pilot in a simulator… I learned how to use my weapon system, how to read my instruments and manage failures or threats. Except the fact that a fly by wire fighter aircraft handling is a bit different compared to legacy airplanes, I have not felt so much difference between a glider and a 4th generation fighter aircraft … The 95% remaining of the flight is tacticals, situation awareness, anticipation and mathematics. Some people pretend that piloting is something you do with your feeling, but from my humble experience, I do not agree. Your so called feelings are in fact just a remanence of your subconscious calculation and experience. To me, piloting is nothing more that computing : what I want to do, what I can do, what I decide to do. Flying is nothing more than this.
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Wouldn’t Descartes say that it’s the satisfaction of a mind at the expense of a body?
I pilot does not train to pilot on a simulator, he or she practices switchology, reflexology, repeat procedure and trains to manage failures. I pretty much used professional simulators in the air force, but honestly, I never learned how to pilot in a simulator… I learned how to use my weapon system, how to read my instruments and manage failures or threats. Except the fact that a fly by wire fighter aircraft handling is a bit different compared to legacy airplanes, I have not felt so much difference between a glider and a 4th generation fighter aircraft … The 95% remaining of the flight is tacticals, situation awareness, anticipation and mathematics. Some people pretend that piloting is something you do with your feeling, but from my humble experience, I do not agree. Your so called feelings are in fact just a remanence of your subconscious calculation and experience. To me, piloting is nothing more that computing : what I want to do, what I can do, what I decide to do. Flying is nothing more than this.
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Wouldn’t Descartes say that it’s the satisfaction of a mind at the expense of a body?
I am really bad at philosophy… Could you explain?
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I’m not very good either. Descartes has the reputation of dividing the human being into a mind and a body, which is still (and certainly was before him) a very common conception - not very supported by today’s science obviously. Piloting, particularly jets, but anything really in the beginning (motion sickness) can be a challenge for a body, but satisfies the associated mind with rich activities of various kinds.
It was just my way to add my two pence, I don’t want to hijack the thread with that.
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I’m not very good either. Descartes has the reputation of dividing the human being into a mind and a body, which is still (and certainly was before him) a very common conception - not very supported by today’s science obviously. Piloting, particularly jets, but anything really in the beginning (motion sickness) can be a challenge for a body, but satisfies the associated mind with rich activities of various kinds.
It was just my way to add my two pence, I don’t want to hijack the thread with that.
Personally, I far prefer THIS line of discussion…
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BTW yesterday I did fly with UOAF and had a great time and I do have to say multiplayer is awesome and quite different than single player.
In single player mode I am able to think about what I am doing a lot more. In multiplayer I am trying to think about what others are doing and what they want me to do while at the same time trying to keep an eye on my #1 or #3. In single player I feel like I am in god mode, in multiplayer I feel I am in duckling mode. So yeah, I would have to say my performance was lackluster, and as Krause pointed out only a fool would expect more out of a newbie to multiplayer.
Also, I have to agree that no amount of single player flying is going to make you competent at multiplayer BUT I do think there’s nothing wrong with satisfying yourself that you can navigate and employ the various weapon systems before trying multiplayer. Sure you could join a squadron with zero familiarization and knowledge, but IMO there’s nothing wrong with taking a month or two getting used to flying, navigating, and employing weapons before taking the leap to multiplayer so that you are slightly less sucky. But then TAKE THE LEAP and be sucky.
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BTW yesterday I did fly with UOAF and had a great time and I do have to say multiplayer is awesome and quite different than single player.
Yeah personally I don’t get nearly the enjoyment out of single player flying in BMS any more. Multi player is just THAT much more enjoyable. The first time you go into a strike with a TARCAP, a SEAD/DEAD, and some strikers and kill your target and manage to bring all your birds back home you will be hooked.
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Except the fact that a fly by wire fighter aircraft handling is a bit different compared to legacy airplanes, I have not felt so much difference between a glider and a 4th generation fighter aircraft …
I’d say the biggest difference by far has to be the ARI coordinating turns for you. This would be an issue for those going from a plane like the F-16 to good old stick and rudder fliers and not nearly so much for those guys moving to an F-16 just from a flight control perspective.
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I’d say the biggest difference by far has to be the ARI coordinating turns for you. This would be an issue for those going from a plane like the F-16 to good old stick and rudder fliers and not nearly so much for those guys moving to an F-16 just from a flight control perspective.
Well. I don’t think there is a very single F-16 pilot in the world who had not flew a propeller aircraft or glider when being a pilot trainee!
Using your rudder to control your symmetry inflight is then probably the most elementary lesson a real pilot will have to master. I learned it during my very first flying lesson, when I was 13 Y/O!
I am sure, many people here have no idea about the concept of adverse yaw!
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I’d say the biggest difference by far has to be the ARI coordinating turns for you. This would be an issue for those going from a plane like the F-16 to good old stick and rudder fliers and not nearly so much for those guys moving to an F-16 just from a flight control perspective.
I USE my rudders…particularly in a flat scissors. I don’t know about all the rest of everyone else, but I use my rudders all the time…even though they aren’t very useful above about 200 KCAS…I still use them.
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I am sure, many people here have no idea about the concept of adverse yaw!
probably another generalisation which is certainly not true. Many ppl here flew other sims without ARI and perfectly understand the secondary effects of all flight controls.
again, many virtual pilots are private pilots or glider pilots and some even became commercial pilots - and in that aspect, they probably all go through the simulation phase - even on a personnal computers. Some sims are just too cheap for decent training and not using the tools at their disposal would be stupid (in the right conditions, as explained by the regulations obviously).
and even if they didn’t, they probably fly other sims such as ww2 sims or civilian sims and they know about adverse yaw and maybe even the weathercock effect !I’m sure they are way more pilots in here than what one might think because not all of us advertise it - some are modest
so don’t underestimate this community. Not all of us are stupids gamers because we didn’t start flying lessons at 13 yearsYou sir won the Darwin award today
Darwin awards are only given to ppl who died because of their stupidity.
I can’t be awarded it (yet) as i’m still alive and kicking !
draw your own conclusion -
@Red:
probably another generalisation which is certainly not true. Many ppl here flew other sims without ARI and perfectly understand the secondary effects of all flight controls.
again, many virtual pilots are private pilots or glider pilots and some even became commercial pilots - and in that aspect, they probably all go through the simulation phase - even on a personnal computers. Some sims are just too cheap for decent training and not using the tools at their disposal would be stupid (in the right conditions, as explained by the regulations obviously).
and even if they didn’t, they probably fly other sims such as ww2 sims or civilian sims and they know about adverse yaw and maybe even the weathercock effect !I’m sure they are way more pilots in here than what one might think because not all of us advertise it - some are modest
so don’t underestimate this community. Not all of us are stupids gamers because we didn’t start flying lessons at 13 yearsOf course, there is many people here who know this elementary concept. Maybe more than the ones who don’t know about it. I am not blaming anbody here. A lot, does not means all, or most. Don’t take me wrong here.
Why do I started flying so early? Because I wanted to become a pilot since I as a young child. Then, did everything I could, gathering money etc. To start flying as early as possible. When I was 16, I started working as a bread seller to pay my flight lessons.
One more time, you tell from my statements stuff I haven’t say. I was the first one here to tell that we should respect everybody here, and everybody has the right to make flight simulation as they want too. And eveybody including me as the first one have to aim respect and humility.
What you deduct ct here just show that you haven,'t understood anything of what I said. But it’s ok, I respect you. You have freedom of speech.
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Thanks for writing what I thought before I shrugged.
@Red:
probably another generalisation which is certainly not true. Many ppl here flew other sims without ARI and perfectly understand the secondary effects of all flight controls.
again, many virtual pilots are private pilots or glider pilots and some even became commercial pilots - and in that aspect, they probably all go through the simulation phase - even on a personnal computers. Some sims are just too cheap for decent training and not using the tools at their disposal would be stupid (in the right conditions, as explained by the regulations obviously).
and even if they didn’t, they probably fly other sims such as ww2 sims or civilian sims and they know about adverse yaw and maybe even the weathercock effect ! -
I simply take and mean the word “fly” in flight simulator like as I say I “killed” 3 people in Call of Duty while I never had an experience of actual combat. I believe everyone means the word “fly” that way.
As long as we can trust BMS’s FM in a certain religion, thinking several theories work almost same way in RL, should be OK.
For instance, when I do a dogfight, BFM theories work just as it is said, and If I believe BMS has reliable enough FM to represent realistic results in BFM, I understand why those theories work not only by word but also by my experience. Like understanding how energy conservation works not only by reading textbook but also by swinging a pendulum.
I once really could not understand why modern jets need to fly formation like WW2 planes do, Wonder why eyesight is required while radar can detect opponent fighter. BMS taught me how they should work and how important would it be.
While I think I could understand a part of RL flight theory that way, at the same time I also can take in consideration that I don’t know RL aviation as same as RL pilots do. I never taught airmanship nor trained and selected in fighter course. I never fear of death while flying as I only “fly” in the virtual world but they fly real, so can not imagine how would I feel or react when facing the power of G, acceleration, real engine problem or whatever experience I never have had in RL. That’s where I know I know nothing.
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For me it’s like this: When I play Monopoly I say, “I am going to buy Boardwalk.” Everyone knows that I am really just playing a game. I don’t say, “I am playing a game called Monopoly and now I would like to pretend to buy Boardwalk.” I am not disrespecting land barons, railroad tycoons, bankers etc. I am not saying I know more than them. So if they take offense that I pretend I am such and such in a game or when talking about the game I play – then that’s their issue – it’s not really mine as I am just being a normal imaginative human being.
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I once really could not understand why modern jets need to fly formation like WW2 planes do, Wonder why eyesight is required while radar can detect opponent fighter. BMS taught me how they should work and how important would it be.
Ain’t that a beauty of a gem to discover while learning about this thing we do huh?