What's up with those rumors
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I had to laugh at the guy arguing with Mav-JP, saying he couldnt possibly know whether the BMS FM is accurate or made up….
That reminds me of trying to educate the keyboard warriors on here about, you know, REAL LIFE harriers, and they tried to tell me how they work. HAHA HAHA!!! Go go gadget keyboard.
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some idea for the clouds:
cool, but how plausible is to code that into bms using dx9? Deejay, RedDog, May you please enlighten me?
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A few points here,
First, DX11.3 is ok to use on Win 7, 8 and 10. The mention of using DX11.3 is that it would be able to apply on all of those operating systems. DX12 is Win 10 only. The differences between DX11.3 and DX12 are minor. With the exception of “Ray Tracing” (still under development). Very cool feature but “overkill” for BMS IMO. Tessalation is a big leap forward for what BMS could utilize for GFX in sim. Such as fragments and shock waves can be procedurally created. Nice effects! Many other features to utilize with DX11.3 if the team goes that route. And, your right. API is an API. It is what you can do with it that makes the magic happen. So, don’t know where the eventual trail will lead, but I am sure it will lead to a fantastic place!
Hey,
Maybe there is a “resolution problem” here regarding the DX APIs
DX11 compared to DX9 include new features that the most important I know are:
HW Tessellation
Texture arrays
HW instancing
Geometry shader
Larger texture resolution support (Up to 16K textures supported by the API)
Larget textures slots can be used for a single draw call (Up to 128)DX11 is available from Win7 and possibly even lower windows versions, but it doesn’t really matter as no one really cares about before Win7.
DX11.2 - Supported from Win8.1 and up and include 1 important feature (There are more but less important IMHO)
Tiled Resources Tier1 supportDX11.3 - Supported from Win10 and include 1 important feature (There are more but less relevant IMHO)
Tiled Resources Tier2 supportThat is what I mean. For me DX11 is the key to the most important features, Tiled Resources are a bonus but not that critical, apparently.
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some idea for the clouds:
There are ~Zillion samples of many many features everywhere. Stuff related to UE4/Unity or other 3rd party engines cannot be used in BMS as we can’t depend on any 3rd party engine.
Also when looking at cool features implemented in samples and even in other flights sims, you need to remember the following:
- Some features are out of reach for a team of our scale, at least if we expect to see something ready in this lifetime. For example M$ AI 2D to 3D conversion.
- Some samples may be way too heavy to implement in a full live game engine.
- Eventually in a flight sim things need to be backed by physics. Some samples (E.g fractal terrains) may look stunning and infinitely detailed, but creating physics and collision detection on it may be impractical.
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Hey,
Maybe there is a “resolution problem” here regarding the DX APIs
DX11 compared to DX9 include new features that the most important I know are:
HW Tessellation
Texture arrays
HW instancing
Geometry shader
Larger texture resolution support (Up to 16K textures supported by the API)
Larget textures slots can be used for a single draw call (Up to 128)DX11 is available from Win7 and possibly even lower windows versions, but it doesn’t really matter as no one really cares about before Win7.
DX11.2 - Supported from Win8.1 and up and include 1 important feature (There are more but less important IMHO)
Tiled Resources Tier1 supportDX11.3 - Supported from Win10 and include 1 important feature (There are more but less relevant IMHO)
Tiled Resources Tier2 supportThat is what I mean. For me DX11 is the key to the most important features, Tiled Resources are a bonus but not that critical, apparently.
AFAIK, DX 11.3 is supported by Vista, Win 7, 8 and 10. It was the last DX 11 release before DX 12. The initial release of Win 10 came with DX 11.3 Again, AFAIK any DX 11 version can run on Vista, 7, 8 and 10 (been reading on DX 11, all releases). It is DX 12 that requires Win 10. However, the “ray tracing” is something to behold…
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/what-is-ray-tracing/
Check out the vid. Very cool light effects off reflections.
I totaly agree with DX 11 (which ever version is used). I do think the 11.3 will run on Win 7 (or Vista) and up. It was released as a precursor to DX 12 as DX 12 was not ready by the time Windows 10 was released.
And yes! A lot of tools that are far more adaptive to a flight sim are there. The API is just an API. But with an expanded instruction set (like DX 11) then the magic will be there. Even close if not the same as FS 2020. I am thinking that any new version of BMS (with DX 11.x) will require multi thread support due to the post processing information the GFX card would need. That is all API. But the ton of GFX info during pre process would need a dedicated core. Unless you write all that code (API) only to have the sim crawl lick a slug. Dual core or greater would be needed. That is something Boxer does not like to hear. But, that is the future. Before BMS even reaches the level of writing a DX 11.x script for the GFX engine, the main code platform would have to be sepperated (at least for the GFX side) and shunted to the other core. But in doing this, the overhead would open up big time (at least it should). The more multi threading BMS can take advantage of, the better the overhead (FPS if you will) the sim will get.
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… update!
Maybe Windows 7 is getting DX 12….
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/ray-tracing-directx-12-windows-7-support-microsoft/
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Some stuff here isn’t clear. I know this Win7 gets DX12 thing, but it doesn’t seem true for DX11/11.x
Also I can swear that I read somewhere that 11.3 is for Win10 only, just can’t find it ATM.
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Some stuff here isn’t clear. I know this Win7 gets DX12 thing, but it doesn’t seem true for DX11/11.x
Also I can swear that I read somewhere that 11.3 is for Win10 only, just can’t find it ATM.
Yeah, it’s possible, but from what I have seen, Windows 7 has DX 11. DX 11.1, 11.2, 11.3 and 11.4 were updates to DX 11. But as they updated, they could have left Windows 7 behind and not update there API for it. Don’t know. But DX 11.1 or 11.2 would be good because of the procedural terrain texturing (Tile Resources). So, even DX 11 itself would be a dramatic improvement.
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So, even DX 11 itself would be a dramatic improvement.
Of course
BTW, I see in your sig you are on Win7? You tried to install 11.3 and it worked? I mean, you know if you can?
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Of course
BTW, I see in your sig you are on Win7? You tried to install 11.3 and it worked? I mean, you know if you can?
dxdiag just says DX 11. No decimals after it. This is a good question. Would DX 11.3 (or what ever) show on dxdiag?
Edit,
You are correct I-Hawk. DX 11.2 to 11.4 are used only on Windows 8 and above (API restricted). However, DX 11.1 can be used for Windows 7 and above.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#Compatibility
(see the compatibility list)
DX 11.1 would be just fine. Even able to use the Terrain procedures :headb:
So, that would be the API version to write. Also, I’m pretty sure that dxdiag will not give you the DX 11.1 info. GPU-Z shows DX 12. But that is just the card. GFX card driver does show operation (running) in DX 11 (wddm 1.1) So after some extensive reading, I have found that running DX 11.1 would require everyone to get the Windows 7 platform update. This would only allow certain features to run in DX 11.1. It would be a big hassle. So, until Microsucks releases a WDDM update for Windows 7 (good luck with that), DX 11 would be the way to go. Less of a hassle to platform update your OS.
Edit again,
Just dowloaded and installed KB2670838. I now have the WDDM 1.2 for Windows 7. It was painless. So DX 11 or DX 11.1
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So you see there isn’t such a big deal , platform update// … dx11.1 was released as part of update 2013 after win7SP1 (2011), so any win7sp1 iso later should be applied already ,
…also now when win7 support is going offline… BUT you don’t loose any patch or support that is to that date. …
-imho best is to update to SP2 “convenience update” (unofficial name) with all the patches to -2017 , but winver will still say Win7Sp1
(even, I recall the case back then with Win2000(server) going down, last servicepack was SP4 , but year(s) later I’ve googled SP5 by accident - it was user made, new dll’s , .Net , etc… huh…
…so there is a big chance that Win7 unofficial support will be kept on … year(s) later) – but… “IS IT SAFE?” … is another caseCheers
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So you see there isn’t such a big deal , platform update// … dx11.1 was released as part of update 2013 after win7SP1 (2011), so any win7sp1 iso later should be applied already ,
…also now when win7 support is going offline… BUT you don’t loose any patch or support that is to that date. …
-imho best is to update to SP2 “convenience update” (unofficial name) with all the patches to -2017 , but winver will still say Win7Sp1
(even, I recall the case back then with Win2000(server) going down, last servicepack was SP4 , but year(s) later I’ve googled SP5 by accident - it was user made, new dll’s , .Net , etc… huh…
…so there is a big chance that Win7 unofficial support will be kept on … year(s) later) – but… “IS IT SAFE?” … is another caseCheers
The big deal was searching for everything. And, I have the latest updates for Win 7. It did not have the KB2670838 update in it. Strange! What I have found is that the 11.1 update is not part of any MS update package. 11.1 is an optional update (user install). At any rate, it took a lot of searching/reading to find any of this stuff. Still, I am a bit more aware of the latest DX confusion surrounding Win 7. Since most of us here are still using Win 7, I thought this to be important. So, Jan 14th 2020 is the last day for support.
Some titles with DX 12 are supported, but until MS releases the full DX 12 to Win 7 (very much doubt that), seems updating to Win 10 would be the only option. It took me a year or so when Win7 came out to upgrade everything (older games) that I occasionally still play. Stuff I grew up on. I’m sentimental that way. Now Win 10 could possibly take many of those old titles away. As I am continuing to read, it seems that Win 10 has matured enough for me to migrate to. Not saying BMS should use DX 12, rather it is support for newer titles I am worried about. This should concern everyone interested. Win 7 will run for years just fine. Just have the best anti-virus software you can get. Still looking at what I have to do, fixing and adjusting everything just to reach the next level. Plus giving $300 to Microsucks again every few years does not make me a happy Panda.
Edit,
Actually, $30 for Win 10 upgrade. Even free if you trust a off site download. Seems inevitable…… -
Jhook…
btw, for win10upgrade, wasn’t the case that if you had legit win7 then you could upgrade to win10 for free ? , if that still counts… edit: meh, that offer ended 2016
buuut. (2019) > https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-you-can-still-get-a-free-windows-10-upgrade/
…so, if you want to play , copy your win7 partition to some disk 1:1 partition/disk copy , and then upgrade your current drive with win7 to win10, … that way you still retain your original win7 on that other drive , make it bootable etc… , dont forget to copy the BOOT partition also , smaller one ~700mb IF it exists
(there are 2 cases of install , 1. BOOT and SYS partitions divided, and 2. - combined BOOT/SYS , … YOU can see if there is hidden /Boot directory in the root of the system drive, where your windows are)
-in ‘combined’ case , it’s less fiddling with partitions-So, in the end you have the possibility to use both systems with just reboot (I have that, menu on boot time ) - even ‘worse’ , my Win7 is on external (e)sata drive , so I can (un)plug as desired
but, for what is worth… BMS works fine in Win10 on my system, dunno about your fps on your system , but everything that worked on win7 works on win10 … JUST , IF you have some old UNSIGNED 3rd party driver for some hardware , be aware that it WON’T work on Win10 because of required driver signing/certification … like on win8/8.1
-on win7 you could, and still CAN, force using unsigned driver …-that wiki for directx is outdated unfortunately (and misinformed) at least for dx11 . below should be more current info.
MAYBE , there is a chance that win7 will see DX12 on its way out … as they did it in March’19 , for World of Worcraft (I believe that it was a test) … for that to see you’ll have to wait next year or so…
DirectX Windows Versions All versions of Windows do not support all versions of DirectX. Here's more on how each version of DirectX works across the Windows family. DirectX 12 is included with Windows 10 and is only supported in that version of Windows. Updates to DirectX 12 related files are only available through Windows Update. No standalone version of DirectX 12 is available. DirectX 11.4 & 11.3 are only supported in Windows 10\. As with DirectX 12.0, updates are only provided through Windows Update. DirectX 11.2 is supported in Windows 10 and Windows 8 (8.1+) only. Any updates to DirectX 11.2 related files are made available in Windows Update in those versions of Windows. There is no standalone download available for DirectX 11.2. DirectX 11.1 is supported in Windows 10 and Windows 8\. Windows 7 (SP1) is supported as well but only after installing the Platform Update for Windows 7. DirectX 11.0 is supported in Windows 10, Windows 8, and Windows 7\. Support for Windows Vista is available but only after a platform update. Get the 32-bit version here or the 64-bit one here. DirectX 10 is supported in Windows 10, Windows 8, Windows 7, and Windows Vista. DirectX 9 is supported in Windows 10, Windows 8, Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Windows XP. If you have a program that calls for a DirectX 9 file in Windows 10 or Windows 8, installing the downloadable version (the process above) is the way to solve that problem—it will not "downgrade" your DirectX 10/11/12 install! This is also the latest version of DirectX that's compatible with Windows XP.
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Good morning, Gentlemen.
My apologies in advance for all the possible nonsense I could say now, but I’m not a computer or programming expert, only an user sometimes a little curious so I’m learning something useful to me.
I’m seeing that in this discussion you all are referring to Windows 7 as the O.S. to be referred on, to talk about some possible Falcon graphic improvement choices after.
May this be related to some technical requirement needed to be assured for, I’m trying to guess, some Falcon backward O.S. compatibility reasons, or is it related only to the O.S. you have installed in your own PC/systems instead?With best regards.
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Jhook…
btw, for win10upgrade, wasn’t the case that if you had legit win7 then you could upgrade to win10 for free ? , if that still counts… edit: meh, that offer ended 2016
buuut. (2019) > https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-you-can-still-get-a-free-windows-10-upgrade/
…so, if you want to play , copy your win7 partition to some disk 1:1 partition/disk copy , and then upgrade your current drive with win7 to win10, … that way you still retain your original win7 on that other drive , make it bootable etc… , dont forget to copy the BOOT partition also , smaller one ~700mb IF it exists
(there are 2 cases of install , 1. BOOT and SYS partitions divided, and 2. - combined BOOT/SYS , … YOU can see if there is hidden /Boot directory in the root of the system drive, where your windows are)
-in ‘combined’ case , it’s less fiddling with partitions-So, in the end you have the possibility to use both systems with just reboot (I have that, menu on boot time ) - even ‘worse’ , my Win7 is on external (e)sata drive , so I can (un)plug as desired
but, for what is worth… BMS works fine in Win10 on my system, dunno about your fps on your system , but everything that worked on win7 works on win10 … JUST , IF you have some old UNSIGNED 3rd party driver for some hardware , be aware that it WON’T work on Win10 because of required driver signing/certification … like on win8/8.1
-on win7 you could, and still CAN, force using unsigned driver …-that wiki for directx is outdated unfortunately (and misinformed) at least for dx11 . below should be more current info.
MAYBE , there is a chance that win7 will see DX12 on its way out … as they did it in March’19 , for World of Worcraft (I believe that it was a test) … for that to see you’ll have to wait next year or so…
DirectX Windows Versions All versions of Windows do not support all versions of DirectX. Here's more on how each version of DirectX works across the Windows family. DirectX 12 is included with Windows 10 and is only supported in that version of Windows. Updates to DirectX 12 related files are only available through Windows Update. No standalone version of DirectX 12 is available. DirectX 11.4 & 11.3 are only supported in Windows 10\. As with DirectX 12.0, updates are only provided through Windows Update. DirectX 11.2 is supported in Windows 10 and Windows 8 (8.1+) only. Any updates to DirectX 11.2 related files are made available in Windows Update in those versions of Windows. There is no standalone download available for DirectX 11.2. DirectX 11.1 is supported in Windows 10 and Windows 8\. Windows 7 (SP1) is supported as well but only after installing the Platform Update for Windows 7. DirectX 11.0 is supported in Windows 10, Windows 8, and Windows 7\. Support for Windows Vista is available but only after a platform update. Get the 32-bit version here or the 64-bit one here. DirectX 10 is supported in Windows 10, Windows 8, Windows 7, and Windows Vista. DirectX 9 is supported in Windows 10, Windows 8, Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Windows XP. If you have a program that calls for a DirectX 9 file in Windows 10 or Windows 8, installing the downloadable version (the process above) is the way to solve that problem—it will not "downgrade" your DirectX 10/11/12 install! This is also the latest version of DirectX that's compatible with Windows XP.
Thanks White Fang but I am well aware of “dual booting”.
The issue, as you say, is support for all of your HW and sub system programs. Still researching all drivers and other software needed to work with Win 10 (something I think everyone should do before upgrading there OS). Seems, so far, everything will work just fine.
One last thing to look into is the OCing inside Win 10. For those of you who overclock, your OS plays a big roll in this. Since Win 10 uses more resources and runs through bios differently (been reading up on this as well) the OC settings may or may not work. It will require testing. OCing is a very tricky thing. I was able to OC well over 5Ghz (5.2Ghz) but the more you make that CPU spin (compute) the hotter and more unstable it becomes. Also, the faster you make your CPU go (even if it is stable) the faster it will burn out. People who overclock rarely take this into account. My OC is very stable @ 4.7Ghz, all 8 cores (temps = Idle 42c and at full load = 74c using P95). When a CPU goes past 80c, the thermal load will shut down the CPU. Thermal protection. So, I have found the sweet spot. Plus I will not burn out my CPU so quickly either. I rarely see anything over 70c. Very low compute errors as well. So, all in all, Win 10 should be fine with all of this. Need to use P95 again for load testing. If Win 10 has heat or compute errors during these tests, then my OC needs to be adjusted.
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Good morning, Gentlemen.
My apologies in advance for all the possible nonsense I could say now, but I’m not a computer or programming expert, only an user sometimes a little curious so I’m learning something useful to me.
I’m seeing that in this discussion you all are referring to Windows 7 as the O.S. to be referred on, to talk about some possible Falcon graphic improvement choices after.
May this be related to some technical requirement needed to be assured for, I’m trying to guess, some Falcon backward O.S. compatibility reasons, or is it related only to the O.S. you have installed in your own PC/systems instead?With best regards.
Hey Jackal,
Yes, BMS GFX update (if any are to be implemented) could need some OS upgrading. For example, if you use Win 7 or above, and BMS decides to use DX 11.1, then everyone using Win 7 would need to update there Win 7 with the KB2670838 DX update patch (or be sure that the patch is installed). You see, GFX DX code requires the OS to be able to use/read the instructions for the GFX code. These are API’s and WDDM’s. Backwards porting API’s and WDDM’s can be done (Win 7 and DX 12 for example). As for BMS, it is obvious that DX 12 would be the crown jewel to use. But that means everyone would need to upgrade there OS to Win 10 (unless the BMS team can port DX 12 to Win 7 like what was done for WoW). These are the points that need to be addressed before BMS mores into a bigger GFX engine state. If BMS decides to use DX 11, those improvements would needed to be coded into the GFX engine so the engine can “talk” to the GFX card and produce the GFX properly. That is actually not that hard to do. It is the assets that would be the undertaking. Huge undertaking! Either use the existing assets (that would be fairly easy to port) and can be used as a place holder until more improved GFX are implemented down the road. “If” DX 12 is used, again you code the existing GFX in and develop future terrain down the road. OR, just hold your breath and code and create all the new assets before any release. But the OS will play a big roll in what is used. That is where the discussion is at this point in this thread.
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Pretty much so, … except that IF the BMS gfx engine would be done in DX11.1 , there wouldnt be need to change OS to win10. Maybe there is a way that it can be done in DX12 and DX11 respectively… don’t know about how much work …etc.
So everyone would be in their own “shoes”. … I say (we all say probably) let’s try with DX11.1 then we’ll see,…
-but, only DX12 ‘profits’ most because of its multi-threading, performance and visual quality wise, so… back to square one… DX11 is good but eats a lot of resources
(DX9 is/was also good, but support is questionable,… kinda, it still works… it even wouldn’t exist anymore if would ask graphics hardware companies, both of them Nvidia an Amd)
…so the future is certain , only time will tellCheers
Oh, about win10 and system resources… Win10 will NOT slow down your computer, neither hog it with resources use, on contrary it even Boots faster then win7. (depends on system)…
What Win10 is using is ‘memory compression’ , so if you’re low on RAM, 8GB or less , then it will dynamically load its resources, but it will leave enough RAM for apps , … yes apps wont ‘fly’ but it is still better performance wise then older OS’es.
…in the end you can always turn off background apps (similar to suspend on android/mac) so after closing they start anew., but don’t use any resources in ‘sleep’ status.On my 32GB , windows with all the goodies (cache, bacgkround apps) uses 5GB’s of RAM … so leaving enough even for a 8GB ram-drive …(that’s a whole BMS theater in ram) a… as I don’t do memory extensive operations much.
but anyways … if you have resources … win10 will spend it … if not it will conserve usage … and it really does a good job… eg there is no any problem to install Win10(x64) on 4GB ram laptop… meh, what can you run on it … is another thing. -
Good morning and thanks a lot, dear jhook and white_fang.
You were so kind to explain me in detail, keeping it short as well, a ‘hard’ technical speech. And making me understanding it, at last!
My little own contribution here, if so, could be only this.
In conclusion, I believe that, like it or not, ‘upgrading’ to Win 10 will be a must, either because its enhanced PC/systems RAM and CPU management capabilities, either because Win 7 will be discountinued very soon, if not already.
I’m using for professional needs Win 10 Pro since its first release and it’s simply terrific; I never had a crash on my PC/system, and please note that I’m using several deep-eating resources applications every day, and sometimes at the same time also.
So, it’s not a ‘political’ or commercial M$ strategy only on pushing us to choose Win 10 as our O.S. - as Hoover wisely stated once and I agree in full with - but it’s so because at the proof of facts in RL professional life it does a great fine job, and those folks know this well because they kept this situation monitored and audited closely by listening and soliciting the opinions of users, especially if they are professionals.I can’t currently recall, sorry, if an advanced multi-core management could or would be worth to be implemented in BMS - there were a discussion some time ago about - but, if done or made so, IMHO this would put Falcon steps beyond among its ‘competitors’ and, maybe, if not at the same M$ Flight Simulator’s levels, at very close ones at least.
I’m repeating now: this is my own one cent only. I-Hawk and you two (my apologies in advance to all those I forgot to mention as due) are the experts here, from what I can see and you established to be with not only ‘big’ stamentents or easy words.
Have a great nice day all.
With best regards.
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I agree Jackal, it’s time to move to the Win10 platform. It was released in July 2015, nearly 5 years ago. You can’t base (well, you can in BMS’s case actually) updates to a 2009 OS, the whole idea of updating is to move forward. There is very little lacking in BMS overall IMHO, except the graphics and the added immersion of them. I love her either way!