Training features request
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@Atlas said in Training features request:
But a magical injection of fuel out of nowhere is… better?
If you are planning a mission where you cannot meet VUL or TOT times because you hit a fuel limit, then there is something wrong with the mission. Top up fuel from a tanker, carry more bags, fly more economically, take off from a closer airbase, etc etc if the idea is realism. If not, then go burner to the fence in point, go burner wherever you go, and just add more fuel as necessary. If your VUL and TOT is rendered meaningless by unlimited fuel, it is also rendered meaningless the moment you add fuel out of thin air, isn’t it?
So if you cannot hit a tanker, magically getting fuel back in the tanks is realism?? Don’t get me wrong here, do whatever you want, fly out of Japan to hit Pyongyang on a fully armed jet with no bags, get unlimited fuel as long as you have fun, but then to say that adding fuel is “in favour of realism”, I’m not exactly sure where you’re coming from.
Atlas in my wild guess I believe you 've approached this post with denial and tunnel vision since the begining.
Otherwise you would have undestood that the 2 bullet points in my post for case 1 are complimenting each other.I wrote that with unlimited fuel the VUL& TOT have no meanining, I am pretty sure the reason is clear and has definitelly nothing to do with mission planning.
Earlier I mentioned to you that for case 1 this function is to “enable/simulate” QRA (Scramble) aircraft without having the players either to wait in a cold plane on the ground for 30-45’, or, exiting the 3d to get the QRA jets.
Since you are always talking about the tanker, I am sure that you are certainly aware of the distance behind FEBA that the HVA would turn and hence the AAR would usually take place , so no, the SCRAMBLED aircraft cannot be simulated by going 160nm(at least) back and forth.
FYI, we operate in EMF theater under HELLAS. We do have many “aircraft carriers(islands)” spread around so that’s where the e-QRA are coming from.
So why not just use unlimited fuel for that person that struggles with fuel management? Why is someone flying an Advanced Training School syllabus when he/she can’t do proper fuel management or hit a tanker to top up?
So in your opinion, a person from trainee pilot to a wing commander is not allowed to make an error?
This link has a list of accidents happened in RL by RL pilots where they were mostly trained beyond AdT ,and yet, they made the error.
Not all the Air Forces have owned tankers, it doesn’t mean that in a PvP mission we won’t be using the tanker as a NATO e-country as depicted by the SPINS/ATO ,but, in day to day business that’s not the case.
Or, in my opinion, the better option is to make that person come to terms with the gap in his skill set and either get better at fuel management (if the rest of the flight can do it, then the mission is possible) or hit a tanker to top up before the flight goes and fences in or fly the attack portion a bit more conservatively and then tank up on the way back, etc etc. All are realistic and results in a better pilot. Maybe the flight may lose a session or two as the new guy catches up to everyone in terms of skill, but at the end of the day, they get a better wingman.
You made all you arguments based on the AAR, I am confident that once you understand why we don’t want to use the tanker it will be easier to grasp the reason why Ironman asked for this “cheat”.
Having the option to refill the aircraft “magically” midair at a preset value of 4-5K lbs, in case of somebody’s error, will allow my flight objectives to be completed rather than postponed for a next flight.
Unlimited fuel adds many constraints in BEM exrcises.
Mate, I’m afraid that I cannot make it simpler for you.
Let’s agree to disagree. -
Guys let’s end it for real now and I mean it now.
Conclusions:
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No way to develop such thing as DEV TEAM considers that this is out of the character of the game!
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There are different ways of using FALCON and this is acceptable. Unfortunately sometimes we can’t understand this different way of thinking.
Personally I wish someday Falcon can potentially be a training platform too. War simulation is good but such a software with so many realistic systems it’s really petty not to give the chance to trainees and trainers to simulate real life.
Period!
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I really don’t understand how a simple request results in how he trains a squadron.
You think after 10 years that he don’t knows about unlimited fuel and unlimited weapons or flights in the frag?
Why don’t you think out of a box and try to understant or ask him the reason for these requests?
Let me give you a example:
When I train a pilot I try to see and show him not one object but the whole phase of the flight:- T/O
- Join up in formation
- Navigation in time
- let say : pop up attacks
- rejoin
- landing
In the above example the main purpose of the training flight is the (4)
Now let’s say that the trainee do bad fuel managment and fuels do not reach him for 3 passes in the target and for LAND.
We will miss the main purpose of the flight.
Or for reload: 3 not good pass and we want one more for better results
So: If i use unlimited fuel i think that the trainee will not managment fuels, from the other case i can give him a second chance.
If i use unlimited weapons and the trainee is doing well, the weight of the aircraft will not change and on the landing it will be heavy.
Again i say it is a training flight and the main purpose is the pop up attacks.
I don’t think that this request is insane, for TRAINING purpose
@MaxWaldorf said in Training features request:
For the time being, use cheats as proposed but I don’t see value for BMS to undertake such a work to reduce realism…
My friend, BMS already has unlimited fuel and unlimited weapons and the @Ironman3 request will reduce realism???
Mayby it’s <more realistic> of the species existing now.@spooky said in Training features request:
Again, BMS team has the right to say no and i think the reasons why we say no are as legit as your requests.
It’s only a request not a demand
@Atlas said in Training features request:
I am curious how you guys are running your training.
I hope you got your answer
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@kodi said in Training features request:
Atlas in my wild guess I believe you 've approached this post with denial and tunnel vision since the begining.
Otherwise you would have undestood that the 2 bullet points in my post for case 1 are complimenting each other.On the contrary, I am curious as to your unique situation. I admit my experience is limited so I acknowledge that this is perhaps a scenario I have not understood properly, so I appreciate you taking the time to explain. So perhaps not tunnel vision and denial but rather lack of experience.
@kodi said in Training features request:
I wrote that with unlimited fuel the VUL& TOT have no meanining, I am pretty sure the reason is clear and has definitelly nothing to do with mission planning.
Of course I agree that with unlimited fuel, VUL and TOT have no meaning. But how is unlimited fuel different from being able to magically inject fuel on demand? How does one take away meaning but the other preserve meaning?
@kodi said in Training features request:
Earlier I mentioned to you that for case 1 this function is to “enable/simulate” QRA (Scramble) aircraft without having the players either to wait in a cold plane on the ground for 30-45’, or, exiting the 3d to get the QRA jets.
Maybe I’ve not understood how you’re implementing this scenario then. Can you give a better picture?
@kodi said in Training features request:
So in your opinion, a person from trainee pilot to a wing commander is not allowed to make an error?
Of course not. But as I previously said, make them pay for the error in a realistic fashion since you mention realism. Land at an alternate airbase, go hit up the tanker, fly conservatively, etc etc. Or magically inject fuel into the tanks, but then don’t say this is realism
@kodi said in Training features request:
This link has a list of accidents happened in RL by RL pilots where they were mostly trained beyond AdT ,and yet, they made the error.So where is the article that says they magically got fuel in their tanks? Errors happen. Being able to deal with it is a key to being a good pilot.
@kodi said in Training features request:
You made all you arguments based on the AAR, I am confident that once you understand why we don’t want to use the tanker it will be easier to grasp the reason why Ironman asked for this “cheat”.
Having the option to refill the aircraft “magically” midair at a preset value of 4-5K lbs, in case of somebody’s error, will allow my flight objectives to be completed rather than postponed for a next flight.
I can somewhat see how the cheat will help, still not 100% clear on it. But the disconnect is still there. You guys claim realism and putting hours in making a good mission and training and flying with guys with lots of hours, but at the same breath ask for magic gas. Realism means if someone makes an error, flight objectives will not be met or will have to be met some other way and most of my most memorable flights have been these types of flights. Heck, I remember a failed flight escorting a wingman back home and keeping bad guys off him more clearly than a successful mission that went smoothly.
Once again, I’d like to say absolutely nothing wrong with how you guys fly! Once again, if you guys have big smiles at the end of the day, who cares if you used unlimited fuel or not? I’m just here asking questions due to my own curiosity about the logic disconnect and hope to learn from it. Not judging anyone at all and I really appreciate the examples!
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@Morgan said in Training features request:
I really don’t understand how a simple request results in how he trains a squadron.
You think after 10 years that he don’t knows about unlimited fuel and unlimited weapons or flights in the frag?
Why don’t you think out of a box and try to understant or ask him the reason for these requests?Sorry, did you miss all the previous discussion and questions?
@Morgan said in Training features request:
In the above example the main purpose of the training flight is the (4)
Now let’s say that the trainee do bad fuel managment and fuels do not reach him for 3 passes in the target and for LAND.
We will miss the main purpose of the flight.
Or for reload: 3 not good pass and we want one more for better results
So: If i use unlimited fuel i think that the trainee will not managment fuels, from the other case i can give him a second chance.
If i use unlimited weapons and the trainee is doing well, the weight of the aircraft will not change and on the landing it will be heavy.
Again i say it is a training flight and the main purpose is the pop up attacks.
I don’t think that this request is insane, for TRAINING purposeSure, and I can see the point there. For training purpose, why not frag a tanker near your range? If the trainee does bad fuel management, then get him to hit the tanker. That’s even more training for him, pointing out how he did bad fuel management and getting him to polish his AAR skills. Might even practice how to locate the tanker and plan a rejoin.
Or if it is a training flight and the main purpose is the pop up attacks, then why not start on a hot jet, burner all the way to the range, do your practice attacks, then quit the mission? In the time you save for startup, enroute, egress, and landing, you can probably do another training session. The main purpose is practicing an attack, who cares about fuel states and joker/bingo?
As for unlimited ammo, I could’ve sworn Falcon had this. Maybe it was Allied Force? But I see your point on not losing weight and not being able to appreciate the difference in aircraft performance.
@Morgan said in Training features request:
I hope you got your answer
I’ve got an answer. Thanks for your insight! Much appreciated!
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@Atlas said in Training features request:
Sorry, did you miss all the previous discussion and questions?
No, i don’t miss nothing my friend. I am just expressing a question
@Atlas said in Training features request:
Sure, and I can see the point there. For training purpose, why not frag a tanker near your range? If the trainee does bad fuel management, then get him to hit the tanker. That’s even more training for him, pointing out how he did bad fuel management and getting him to polish his AAR skills. Might even practice how to locate the tanker and plan a rejoin.
First of all i will agee with you,
Has it occurred to you that the time I can devote to the sim may be limited? or we have not put an AAP flight?
Nobody said we would press the magic button on every flight, but sometimes it can be magic. What is bad? you can save time for more debriefing.@Atlas said in Training features request:
Or if it is a training flight and the main purpose is the pop up attacks, then why not start on a hot jet, burner all the way to the range, do your practice attacks, then quit the mission? In the time you save for startup, enroute, egress, and landing, you can probably do another training session. The main purpose is practicing an attack, who cares about fuel states and joker/bingo?
My answer:
@Morgan said in Training features request:
When I train a pilot I try to see and show him not one object but the whole phase of the flight:
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@Morgan said in Training features request:
No, i don’t miss nothing my friend. I am just expressing a question
So I am not sure why you are asking that question then as I have clearly asked him the reason for this odd request and asked how one option (unlimited fuel) is not acceptable. As I said, claiming realism but then asking for a magic refuel option is a disconnect.
@Morgan said in Training features request:
Has it occurred to you that the time I can devote to the sim may be limited? or we have not put an AAP flight?
So why not focus on what your main objective is? Why do T/O - rejoin - navigate - [main objective] - rejoin - land when you can probably do 2 or 3 rounds of that [main objective] if you start a TE in mid-air a few nm from the fence-in point? Especially if you have limited time, then you are not wasting time on things that you are not focusing on, such as the other phases of flight. Starting in mid-air also eliminates the bad fuel management problem.
Like if a buddy and I want to practice A-A engagements and doing offensive/defensive/neutral starts, we can frag a flight where we do everything from startup to shutdown if we have the time to spare or, as more often is the case, we’ll just skip all of that and fly a dogfight or custom TE.
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@Atlas The high level disconnect is this: he’s not simulating being an air force pilot in a war; he’s simulating being an air force trainee in a simulator.
This is the kind of thing they do.
The word “realism” is being used to mean two things in this thread. (a) real experience and outcomes of a real pilot in a real plane. vs (b) real experience and outcomes of a trainee in a simulator.
In (a) the pilot says: “oh s–t I’m out of fuel … ejecting!”
In (b) the instructor says: “you’ve burned too much fuel at this point… deducting 10 points. now let’s add some fuel, and continue the lesson”
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@Atlas said in Training features request:
So I am not sure why you are asking that question then as I have clearly asked him the reason for this odd request and asked how one option (unlimited fuel) is not acceptable. As I said, claiming realism but then asking for a magic refuel option is a disconnect.
It’s not only you. Someone else also talked about bad training
Im a member and trainer in this squadron and i have to make this question. And with that question i want to tell you to focus in the subject of this topic.@Atlas said in Training features request:
So why not focus on what your main objective is? Why do T/O - rejoin - navigate - [main objective] - rejoin - land when you can probably do 2 or 3 rounds of that [main objective] if you start a TE in mid-air a few nm from the fence-in point? Especially if you have limited time, then you are not wasting time on things that you are not focusing on, such as the other phases of flight. Starting in mid-air also eliminates the bad fuel management problem.
Like if a buddy and I want to practice A-A engagements and doing offensive/defensive/neutral starts, we can frag a flight where we do everything from startup to shutdown if we have the time to spare or, as more often is the case, we’ll just skip all of that and fly a dogfight or custom TE.PLEASE, PLEASE do not tell us what we can do, we ALREADY know.
You spoke about unlimited fuel, unlimited weapons , flights in the frag , AAR, to start the flight near to the main purpose…
Whenever it’s necessary, we do it that way@kodi gave 2 examples and 1 for me. Again please focus on this 3 examples and pay attention in the subject of this topic.
Since you want to take part in this discussion, answer with a <I do not find it a good idea> <I find it a good idea>
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@Ironman3
Greetings All. Why not use the Refueling Realism Settings for your training purposes? -
@airtex2019 said in Training features request:
@Atlas The high level disconnect is this: he’s not simulating being an air force pilot in a war; he’s simulating being an air force trainee in a simulator.
This is the kind of thing they do.
@airtex2019 is just stating the obvious here since it is already clearly seen on the thread title “Training features request”. Also clearly explained multiple times with example missions, why that feature is requested. And as also explained above this is not a unique request, it has been requested again in the past by other vfs. @Atlas you and others may never understand why someone needs that feature, me and others clearly understand why this feature is needed. We just see things differently. Training for a vfs means that many people need to be available at the same time for that purpose. For 2-3 hours. That is not easy when you have family and other RL obligations. So we must make the most of that time. That is why features like that are requested. Trainees can try to implement fuel management BUT if they fail to do it properly they will inform their formation, add some fuel and continue with their mission. In the end not everyone has to understand WHY I WANT a damn flashlight on my Swiss army knife! Have a good day all!
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@Atlas we gave examples, described the way we fly and yet we still trying to prove that the first day of the week is Monday.
I really regret posting this thread and didn’t try to dig a little bit more as I think that I have the solution.
Our squadron wants the ability to fly War and Training too. BMS for now is dedicated to improve war simulation only, it’s stated and is acceptable.
Let’s end it. No point of keep talking about this. If somebody really wants to understand the way we fly please apply for our Iniochos exercise in a few months. There are going to be plenty of docs explaining how we are going to fly but if we continue posting here this is going to be unnecessary.
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Hi everyone,
Let me tell you my opinion about that topic
It’s all about perpective and point of view…
Let me explain myself…@Ironman3 's request is a pure request (like older requests “could we have the IFF functional?” - at previous version). So simple…
The personal perspective is the one that made it so big deal and we have transferred the whole conversation from that simple request to the level of realism…
To be more specific…
If you want to use the instant refueling in order not to move back the throttle out of MAX AB position, it’s totally a cheat and you be ashamed…
But…(There is always a huge but )
If you are planning a training mission (for a new guy let’s say) the problem is the following (as i see it…)
You have to breif (or expain at least at the begining) him about:- SOP
- Tactical Departure
- G Warm up
- Main event (whatever it is)
- Extra events during arrival (IFR, SFO,etc)
Taking for granded that a new e-pilot is burnt out if the briefing exceeds 45’-60’, how are you going to fit the A2A refueling briefing (a very complex exercise) into the already full flight?
And plz don’t tell me “come on it’s easy, you hit this and that and just connect”!!!Remember we talk about realism…
So it will be very grateful is he could add some extra fuel to finish the exercise and as a penalty he will start the next mission (as a counter action to let him understand the importance of his poor fuel management) with less fuel (how less, the excact amount of extra he used)
Case 2: ACT / Complex exercises…
In real life (eg TLP Training) if you want to train better the OCA players into a dynamic environment and taking for granded that you have specific number of A/C, you introduce “Regeneration” procedures…
I think / hope that everyone is familiar with the term…So, in BMS world, we could have the opportunity to make even better!!!
We solved the problem of extra Weapons and we can even (may) solve the problem of the extra fuel with that request (because in real life you have to exit the area, move to tha tanker, doc, come back, etc… and by doing that the VUL is over! So you just regen with the same fuel and you are conservative requarding the AB usage (Lofts and whatever).
But in BMS maybe you can solve this problem (remember that in that kind of mission only one side gets the best of the training and the other team is helping in that direction, so the “instant fueling” will be valid ONLY for dad guys)
And you skip possible connection issues from getting out of 3D into 2D, jump in olanother A/C and recommit with BMS handcuffs (IDM Slots, AI Routes not to mess up with the D-ACT Area, etc)About the level of realism…
There is no point in crossing swords
Training should be based on Docs (BMS Docs, BEM Docs, etc…)Every SQN deep inside knows if he flies as BEM says or cutting some corners…
Best regards,
Runner
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@airtex2019 said in Training features request:
In (b) the instructor says: “you’ve burned too much fuel at this point… deducting 10 points. now let’s add some fuel, and continue the lesson”
B makes so much sense! Is this what they’re actually doing though? Because if so, then that explanation just nails it, but then why are you the one saying it and not them? But yes, if they do B, then fair enough.
@Morgan @danaos75 @Ironman3
Thanks for the insight. I’ll just leave it at that.Have a nice day and all the best with your missions!
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@Ironman3 said in Training features request:
BMS for now is dedicated to improve war simulation only, it’s stated and is acceptable.
Can’t let that go by without pointing out that this may be your opinion but given the history of features the team has added it’s manifestly obvious that this statement isn’t accurate. Just because a dev didn’t jump on your particular request doesn’t mean there’s any lack of interest in training as a general topic.
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@Boxer to be fair, OP is only reflecting what was said, at the top – “absolutely out the question” to put something like that in BMS.
We all appreciate that not every area of functionality can be invested in, all at once, all the time. it’s good that BMS team has clear focus on priorities. I think OP acknowledged that, and also that priorities and goals may change in the future – by qualifying it with “for now”.
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@airtex2019 said in Training features request:
@Boxer to be fair, OP is only reflecting what was said, at the top – “absolutely out the question” to put something like that in BMS.
We all appreciate that not every area of functionality can be invested in, all at once, all the time. it’s good that BMS team has clear focus on priorities. I think OP acknowledged that, and also that priorities and goals may change in the future – by qualifying it with “for now”.
All true but equally true is that lack of uptake on one feature nominally to support training does not mean that there is no interest in or work going towards training as an important activity in the game to support. Sweeping generalizations are not helpful. #FakeNews, lol
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@airtex2019
Thanks to you my friend and a team member of our squadron (Knight you rock!!!) we managed to make our “cheat”. The answer was a script!!! Although we found the solution we examine the possibility of reentering the 3d in already airborne aircrafts as we are quite openminded.So mark as solved by us of course as promised!!!
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Maybe something like this
JetFighter III (PC/DOS) 1996, Mission Studios