4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off
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@Snake122 Very good call!!
What I mean with small in that case is the opposite you have described.
Seatingposition and headposition feels correct and good, but the cockpit is pretty tiny. So every component is to small/to far away.The refference I use to compare the BMS cockpit in VR to is a very acurately built 1:1 homecockpit with a lot of real components, I’m sitting in dozens of hours per month.
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@Snake122 Hi, I think the root of this issue that the eye distance of the users are different, and the depth perception, the scale of the surrounding world is strongly connected to this exact distance. How their brain learned and used this view difference before. If you put a VR goggle on a user, and the two small display show them pictures generated from a different distance, your brain will process that pictures as a different scaling than usual. This is why you will get different opinions and different results if you ask the users, because everyone perceives their surroundings slightly differently, someone will see the 4.37 cockpits in perfect size, someone will feel smaller.
This is what the IPD (Inter-Pupillary Distance) settings intended to solve in all VR games (distance between the VR left and right camera viewpoints). This value should be changeable by users.
This is independent from camera center position, if someone feel that camera is not in the good position, lower or further back than it should, or how big the pilot model is. Then you will see the cockpit from a different spot, but the scaling would be still OK. The camera position will not affect the IPD issue at all.
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@Snake122 said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
Guys,
Just saying, I realized people saying the cockpit feels “small” that could be interpreted either way. To me with the Pimax 8k X having parallel projections checked, the cockpit feels “small” in the sense that everything is too close to me, making everything bigger than normal (ICP, HUD) but smaller distances involved. I didn’t realize that we could be describing the same thing, so please give a little bit more of a descriptor there if you could in more physical reference.
I would say from sitting in the real F-16 and cockpit trainer multiple times, it is one of the smaller fighter jets out there and everything feels tight, close, but accessable. The F-15 on the other hand has the reputation to feel very roomy and spacious like “an old Cadillac,” partly due to the nose diameter with it’s large radar dish. Unfortunately, this is one of those things that doesn’t always translate as well until you sit in them for real.
@Caldero said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
@SOBO-87 said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
@spotdott I’ve sat in the real jet several times, and yes the MFDs are beyond your knees.
Pic to illustrate.
In 4.37 VR with Quest 2 see the MFDs just above my ankles, not my knees, and the pilot legs at the same height of my belly button
I think something is weird, not a showstopper (I love falcon in VR!) But I hope it can be fixed
Best regards
Just saying, your actual body or the VR pilot body? It matters because RL F-16 seat is much different position than an office chair.
Sorry I didn’t explained well, I mean:
In 4.37 VR with Quest 2 I see the VR MFDs just above the VR pilot ankles, not above his knees, and the VR pilot legs at the same height of my real body belly button (but the VR pilot eyes at the same height of my real body eyes)
I fly on a chair with the backrest not vertical but 30 degrees aft
I think the cockpit in VR is very tiny
Best regards
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@VO101_Tom said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
@Snake122 Hi, I think the root of this issue that the eye distance of the users are different, and the depth perception, the scale of the surrounding world is strongly connected to this exact distance. How their brain learned and used this view difference before. If you put a VR goggle on a user, and the two small display show them pictures generated from a different distance, your brain will process that pictures as a different scaling than usual. This is why you will get different opinions and different results if you ask the users, because everyone perceives their surroundings slightly differently, someone will see the 4.37 cockpits in perfect size, someone will feel smaller.
This is what the IPD (Inter-Pupillary Distance) settings intended to solve in all VR games (distance between the VR left and right camera viewpoints). This value should be changeable by users.
This is independent from camera center position, if someone feel that camera is not in the good position, lower or further back than it should, or how big the pilot model is. Then you will see the cockpit from a different spot, but the scaling would be still OK. The camera position will not affect the IPD issue at all.
That’s not my case. I have tried that already and it doesn’t change anything (other than seeing things double or blurry). Also, the dimensions behaviour changes from plane to plane, as I explained in the first post.
And I haven’t had this feeling in other VR cockpits (Elite, DCS, VTOLVR) -
@Ferde at the moment you could not have tried that, as BMS doesn’t allow the IPD to be changed by the user. We are not talking IPD of the HMD itself.
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@Korbi Ah, OK, I thought it was about the HMD one. Sorry.
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@Caldero yes my mistake, the MFDs indeed look like they are just above the ankles.
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@Ferde said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
@Korbi Ah, OK, I thought it was about the HMD one. Sorry.
Our experience in Cliffs, and I know the DCS also had the same issue that the IPD value provided by VR goggles are useless. Don’t ask why, but the vast majority of VR users reported that the IPD customisation by users was the real solution. Perhaps the code don’t even care much of VR goggle settings? I wouldn’t be surprised if this would be the case…
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Guys.
Several things going on here. For starters the seating position in the F-16 is something more akin to a racing car rather than a more conventional aircraft seating position. Unless you’re sitting in an 1:1 F-16 pit the feet will very likely feel very high. This is normal.
Secondly your world scale probably needs adjusting, this is essentially tuning the distance between your virtual eyes to match your real ones. You can adjust this in SteamVR, firstly add BMS to steam, I added the the BMS exe within bin/x64 in the root directory of BMS. This seems to work fine. Once in the cockpit, open up the steam VR overlay with your VR controller, select adjust video settings. Select per app profile and select BMS. Scroll down to override world scale, and you can scale the world up or down there until it feels right to you. NOTE: World scale changes don’t work until you jump out of 3D and back into the cockpit. So make an adjustment in cockpit, end flight, and then re-commit to see what changes it makes.
Hope that helps!
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Question: without IPD setting do DCS and BMS F-16pit looks same scale to you guys?
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@SOBO-87 said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
Guys.
Several things going on here. For starters the seating position in the F-16 is something more akin to a racing car rather than a more conventional aircraft seating position. Unless you’re sitting in an 1:1 F-16 pit the feet will very likely feel very high. This is normal.
Secondly your world scale probably needs adjusting, this is essentially tuning the distance between your virtual eyes to match your real ones. You can adjust this in SteamVR, firstly add BMS to steam, I added the the BMS exe within bin/x64 in the root directory of BMS. This seems to work fine. Once in the cockpit, open up the steam VR overlay with your VR controller, select adjust video settings. Select per app profile and select BMS. Scroll down to override world scale, and you can scale the world up or down there until it feels right to you. NOTE: World scale changes don’t work until you jump out of 3D and back into the cockpit. So make an adjustment in cockpit, end flight, and then re-commit to see what changes it makes.
Hope that helps!
Added the exe in root, added in steam as a non-steam game.
Tried launching from steam, CTD after load screen.
Launched from exe, doesn’t appear in the app list. -
@SOBO-87 I will try that, thank you. Can I use the steamoverlay without vr controllers too? I only have the HMD itself.
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@chihirobelmo said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
Question: without IPD setting do DCS and BMS F-16pit looks same scale to you guys?
I do not have the F-16 for myself, but tried it at a friends HMD some time ago, I can say it looked alike size-wise. I was then able to correct that issue by using the IPD setting.
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@LorikEolmin said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
@SOBO-87 said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
Guys.
Several things going on here. For starters the seating position in the F-16 is something more akin to a racing car rather than a more conventional aircraft seating position. Unless you’re sitting in an 1:1 F-16 pit the feet will very likely feel very high. This is normal.
Secondly your world scale probably needs adjusting, this is essentially tuning the distance between your virtual eyes to match your real ones. You can adjust this in SteamVR, firstly add BMS to steam, I added the the BMS exe within bin/x64 in the root directory of BMS. This seems to work fine. Once in the cockpit, open up the steam VR overlay with your VR controller, select adjust video settings. Select per app profile and select BMS. Scroll down to override world scale, and you can scale the world up or down there until it feels right to you. NOTE: World scale changes don’t work until you jump out of 3D and back into the cockpit. So make an adjustment in cockpit, end flight, and then re-commit to see what changes it makes.
Hope that helps!
Added the exe in root, added in steam as a non-steam game.
Tried launching from steam, CTD after load screen.
Launched from exe, doesn’t appear in the app list.App parameters in Steam 2D, tick the “include in VR apps” box, then restart Steam.
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Man, yes, that exactly answers our problem. But I’ll post a step-by-step fix for that. I need to use the x64 exe or it won’t start.
EDIT: there: https://forum.falcon-bms.com/post/361141
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@chihirobelmo said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
Question: without IPD setting do DCS and BMS F-16pit looks same scale to you guys?
Depends, here for me Pimax 8K X with large FOV parallel projections unchecked (preferred setting) the scale feels right for real life and compared to DCS. I have sat in the real viper cockpit and trainers/sims multiple times in my life. But this setting has major collimation issues, HUD is only visible to one eye, screen overlays like FPS severely doubled, mouse cursor is way off (holding cursor over FFI actually clicks TIME or CRUS ICP buttons).
With the parallel projections checked which causes stupid high resolution (8k per eye), the scale and FOV feels very off. ICP is too close, pilot feels short and stubby, can’t look at kneeboard without issues.
My one flight with Quest 2 felt about right to me.
I also have access to a original Vive and a Rift S if that’s needed.
@Korbi said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
@SOBO-87 I will try that, thank you. Can I use the steamoverlay without vr controllers too? I only have the HMD itself.
This @SOBO-87, I have V1 controllers but have V2 base stations up so the controllers are in storage. My VR controller games are Quest 2 these days. DCS is PointCtrl of course.
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@Snake122 said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
mouse cursor is way off (holding cursor over FFI actually clicks TIME or CRUS ICP buttons).
Do you have a Touchscreen Monitor ?
My squadmate had the same issue with his 2nd Screen (Touchscreeen with Helios), afte rdisconnecting this 2nd Screnn everything was ok.
Maybe tis helps -
@Snake122 The mouse issue was solved for me by unticking “Hidden Area Mask”.
Did you try that? -
@chihirobelmo said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
Question: without IPD setting do DCS and BMS F-16pit looks same scale to you guys?
Last time I paid them was the F-18 five years ago, but I remember that was small too.
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@Ferde said in 4.37 VR cockpit scale feels off:
@Snake122 I know you asked Caldero, but I started this thread so forgive my intrusion.
The VR legs are at the real world’s bellybutton level. It feels as if the pilot in BMS was petite. But is the overall cabin that feels a tad too small in scale.
Like the flight control looks smaller than the replica I have to control it.I don’t have that feeling in other VR simulations.
To be clear, yet not to detract from possible real scale issues in BMS VR, the IRL belly button of an F-16 pilot is severely lowered due to the seat orientation, the knees are up way high (have to reach past them for MFD’s), and the feet extended more straight than bent - here’s a cutaway 1:12 scale model for reference - note how low the butt is compared to where the knees will be: