Flying Skills
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You do not give any examples, either videos or definition of “crappy take offs and landings” both of which are such simple tasks that perhaps many can not be bothered demonstrating them
by the book
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Why I’m scared of getting into dogfights?
1. A dogfight costs energy (fuel) which means less playtime.
2. A dogfight rapidly decreases situational awareness. The SA build throughout the whole flight can be wasted within minutes in a dogfight.
3. A fight attracts visitors. Visitors to a fight won’t always help.
4. A dogfight usually delays the mission which is bad most of the time.
5. It is difficult to support each other in a dogfight (see point 2).I wouldn’t say that the F-16 can beat anything in a dogfight. The mirage for example is very agile. Against the MiG-29 / Su-27 you have minor advantages at best and most of the time you carry drop tanks. The -29/-27 also have the ability to shoot through the circle in a knife fight. I simply don’t want to mess around with everybody if I don’t have too. Save the plane, fulfill the mission goal is top priority. I do not care about having a lot of kills. Hanging around on a BARCAP without having to shoot down anybody is a success either way, and if some bad guys show up, I will try to down them as far out as I can.
It’s a thing of minimizing risks. I will rather bug out and use grinder tactics than getting into a furball if i can avoid it.But yes, basic flying isn’t always the best. Although some people really know how to deliver a good A-A fight, they struggle with refueling, crosswind landings and such stuff. Many people also train to fight very often, but don’t train basic flying skills that often (at least I think so).
Most of the time, a good formation is one where you can see at least one other plane in the same flight. The other part of the virtual pilots fly fingertip all the time, and only a few get into tactical formations. -
Most people simply did not get the chance to get the basics taught to them.
2 simple questions:
What does control attitude: stick or throttle ?
What does control altitude: stick or throttle ?
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Why I’m scared of getting into dogfights?
1. A dogfight costs energy (fuel) which means less playtime.
2. A dogfight rapidly decreases situational awareness. The SA build throughout the whole flight can be wasted within minutes in a dogfight.
3. A fight attracts visitors. Visitors to a fight won’t always help.
4. A dogfight usually delays the mission which is bad most of the time.
5. It is difficult to support each other in a dogfight (see point 2).I wouldn’t say that the F-16 can beat anything in a dogfight. The mirage for example is very agile. Against the MiG-29 / Su-27 you have minor advantages at best and most of the time you carry drop tanks. The -29/-27 also have the ability to shoot through the circle in a knife fight. I simply don’t want to mess around with everybody if I don’t have too. Save the plane, fulfill the mission goal is top priority. I do not care about having a lot of kills. Hanging around on a BARCAP without having to shoot down anybody is a success either way, and if some bad guys show up, I will try to down them as far out as I can.
It’s a thing of minimizing risks. I will rather bug out and use grinder tactics than getting into a furball if i can avoid it.But yes, basic flying isn’t always the best. Although some people really know how to deliver a good A-A fight, they struggle with refueling, crosswind landings and such stuff. Many people also train to fight very often, but don’t train basic flying skills that often (at least I think so).
Most of the time, a good formation is one where you can see at least one other plane in the same flight. The other part of the virtual pilots fly fingertip all the time, and only a few get into tactical formations.You’re totally right. I should have worded my first post better. A dogfight is bad tactically, I was talking more once you’re in it, a lot of people seem to be rather poor, at best. I feel like it would help some people here to spend some time in Rise of Flight or IL-2 1946, especially in A). Dogfighting, and B). General flying. Those old planes really need to be taken off and landed right, or you end up a big crater in the ground. No FCLS to save you.
You do not give any examples, either videos or definition of “crappy take offs and landings” both of which are such simple tasks that perhaps many can not be bothered demonstrating them
by the book
.As for “demonstrating” good take offs and landings, it shouldn’t be something one needs to “demonstrate” in videos. It should be something they just do, naturally. A bad landing is one in which you are fast, not stable on the approach, too high/low, or for any other reason are putting the aircraft at risk. In almost every video I watch on YT of BMS, landings are performed way too fast, often in the area of 160-180 knots, rather than around 140, where they should be. Really, all it takes is looking at the AOA indicator, or the bracket.
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In almost every video I watch on YT of BMS, landings are performed way too fast, often in the area of 160-180 knots, rather than around 140, where they should be. Really, all it takes is looking at the AOA indicator, or the bracket.
This is a generalization. Were ALL of these aircraft you saw loaded down the exact same way on landing? If not then you cannot make statements like this as there is a huge difference between landing a clean bird with 2000 pounds of gas and one at say 10,000 pounds of gas, missiles, and spare A-G weapons.
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This is a generalization. Were ALL of these aircraft you saw loaded down the exact same way on landing? If not then you cannot make statements like this as there is a huge difference between landing a clean bird with 2000 pounds of gas and one at say 10,000 pounds of gas, missiles, and spare A-G weapons.
I’ve seen it on empty planes and heavy planes. The point is, too fast is too fast. A proper approach in the F-16 is flown at 11-17 degrees of AOA, which is not doable at 180+, regardless of the load. Not to mention, of course, that you should never be landing a fully laden F-16. On another note, I’ve also noticed that a lot of people don’t do aerodynamic braking after touchdown. A real F-16 actually went off the end of a runway at an airshow because the pilot came in too fast, and then didn’t aero brake.
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Why I’m scared of getting into dogfights?
1. A dogfight costs energy (fuel) which means less playtime.
2. A dogfight rapidly decreases situational awareness. The SA build throughout the whole flight can be wasted within minutes in a dogfight.
3. A fight attracts visitors. Visitors to a fight won’t always help.
4. A dogfight usually delays the mission which is bad most of the time.
5. It is difficult to support each other in a dogfight (see point 2).I wouldn’t say that the F-16 can beat anything in a dogfight. The mirage for example is very agile. Against the MiG-29 / Su-27 you have minor advantages at best and most of the time you carry drop tanks. The -29/-27 also have the ability to shoot through the circle in a knife fight. I simply don’t want to mess around with everybody if I don’t have too. Save the plane, fulfill the mission goal is top priority. I do not care about having a lot of kills. Hanging around on a BARCAP without having to shoot down anybody is a success either way, and if some bad guys show up, I will try to down them as far out as I can.
It’s a thing of minimizing risks. I will rather bug out and use grinder tactics than getting into a furball if i can avoid it.But yes, basic flying isn’t always the best. Although some people really know how to deliver a good A-A fight, they struggle with refueling, crosswind landings and such stuff. Many people also train to fight very often, but don’t train basic flying skills that often (at least I think so).
Most of the time, a good formation is one where you can see at least one other plane in the same flight. The other part of the virtual pilots fly fingertip all the time, and only a few get into tactical formations.Very well said, mature, precise and correct! :!::!::!:
Hey OP, you should not be making your approach at 140 kts most of the times, nose is too high, touching down at 140-145 maybe yes. I’m sure you’re well aware of the difference in Vapp and Vref.a lot of people seem to be rather poor, at best. I feel like it would help some people here to spend some time in Rise of Flight or IL-2 1946, especially in A). Dogfighting, and B). General flying.
Who have you been watching over at YT? On the contrary there are a lot of exceptionally good guys there making vids of good flying in BMS!
Generally one should be getting the hang of basic flying first and then combat employment this makes up for a good and fluid training!
There isn’t anything dramatically different in older prop fighters and modern jets in the dogfighting departament except the speeds are much higher today!F-16 can beat anything in a dogfight
Very far from truth when put this way, there are plenty of RL accounts of jocks based on years of practice pointing to the contrary, F15s, Su-27s, Su-30s, Su-35s, Su-37s, MiG-29s all turn better, climb better and are all 'round better fighters with level pilot skills of course!
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I feel like it would help some people here to spend some time in Rise of Flight or IL-2 1946, especially in A). Dogfighting, and B). General flying. Those old planes really need to be taken off and landed right, or you end up a big crater in the ground. No FCLS to save you.
You’re right on that. Although I really sucked on that WWII stuff because due to the lack of power and most of it, the lack of firepower. Those small guns suck. They really suck. Also, newer fighters provide a lot of more possibilities in the vertical that you just can’t use with the WWII planes.
But for the flying, it is a great experience to fly a non-FLCS plane first.As for “demonstrating” good take offs and landings, it shouldn’t be something one needs to “demonstrate” in videos. It should be something they just do, naturally. A bad landing is one in which you are fast, not stable on the approach, too high/low, or for any other reason are putting the aircraft at risk. In almost every video I watch on YT of BMS, landings are performed way too fast, often in the area of 160-180 knots, rather than around 140, where they should be. Really, all it takes is looking at the AOA indicator, or the bracket.
Well, the empty F-16 is around 135 knots and a fully loaden one is about 160 knots on the final. Sometimes, I do spend a lot less fuel than I expected which leads to a very heavy jet on approach.
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I do keep a good reserve and always land with the upper speed limit of the bracket.
In real bad conditions, even more (see
I think it is just that there is no real flight school and most of the virtual pilots do not care as long as nothing breaks. Any landing you can walk away from is a good one.After all, it’s a virtual world and people enjoy it in different ways.
Those who want to learn do find good videos on youtube as well or do get a good training in VFW’s. I think that’s the way to go. -
I’ve seen it on empty planes and heavy planes. The point is, too fast is too fast. A proper approach in the F-16 is flown at 11-17 degrees of AOA
A proper approach is flow at roughly 11 degrees of AoA. 17 is WAY too much AoA for an approach.
which is not doable at 180+, regardless of the load.
Well now you are changing the numbers to suit your argument which is bunk. Your post said between 160 and 180 knots which is appropriate for some loadouts for landing. Stick with your original plan Stan.
Not to mention, of course, that you should never be landing a fully laden F-16.
Life happens and sometimes it isn’t much of a choice as to if you are going to land but where you are going to land.
On another note, I’ve also noticed that a lot of people don’t do aerodynamic braking after touchdown. A real F-16 actually went off the end of a runway at an airshow because the pilot came in too fast, and then didn’t aero brake.
That was much more related to the fast landing (which means he also probably landed long) than it was about aero braking.
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A dogfight is bad tactically, …
I’ve heard about modern fighters that if the pilot gets into a close dogfight, he has made a SA-related mistake…
I’d love to see a Falcon-Online campaign with the rule that you only have 1 “life” for the whole campaign.
It would probably change the “gameplay” a bit to the right side!- Not saying that current campaigns are bad, it is just something that crossed my mind…
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I’d love to see a Falcon-Online campaign with the rule that you only have 1 “life” for the whole campaign.
It would probably change the “gameplay” a bit to the right side!that sure would be interesting !!
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Going to echo the same sentiment about dogfights; I have no problem emerging alive from one, but I know that every time I’ve entered one, that this mission is scrapped because I have to dump everything I’m carrying and light burners fully for several minutes at worst, at low altitude. Even if I have enough fuel to hook up with a KC- afterwards, I will still lack the tools needed for the mission.
If what I’m doing is A2A based, that’s one thing. Fuel tanks are almost always dropped even for -120 engagements, but 90% of the missions I frag and fly are A2G, mostly Wild Weasel or strikes, and the 20mm isn’t quite enough to make up for the jettisoned HARMs and bombs.
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I’d love to see a Falcon-Online campaign with the rule that you only have 1 “life” for the whole campaign.
It would probably change the “gameplay” a bit to the right side!Sounds exciting!!!
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despite the fact that the F-16 can beat anything in a dogfight.
I agree with this actually - but so could a good pilot in an F-4.
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Most people simply did not get the chance to get the basics taught to them.
2 simple questions:
What does control attitude: stick or throttle ?
What does control altitude: stick or throttle ?
If I were to answer it today : The answer to both questions - the autopilot
If it was during the stick & rudder days - Throttle controls altitude, Stick controls airspeed.
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Most people simply did not get the chance to get the basics taught to them.
2 simple questions:
What does control attitude: stick or throttle ?
What does control altitude: stick or throttle ?
There’s a fine manual on landing which focuses exactly on this. I don’t know why so few people know this. It can be found here:
http://www.185th.co.uk/forum/docs.asp?action=showsubcat&id=13I don’t know if this approach works in a real F-16.
But it definitely works like a charm in a glider. I managed to land on a lawn just 4 times the length of my plane once using this technique (could have been the high rise roof from John Carpenter’s Escape from New York). I think I couldn’t have done this with the traditional (glider) landing. It also makes for much safer landings in a glider, because you keep the airspeed always in the safe zone and don’t pull out the speed by accident - after all, you focus exactly on maintaining airspeed with the stick, using the air brake (really not a brake, it’s simply destroying lift making this even better suitable for this) to control your descent rate.
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There’s a fine manual on landing which focuses exactly on this.
Excellent article, thanks for sharing!
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In my opinion it is hard to teach someone how to do a very good landing in a simulator. I may be wrong, but the simulator is harder for stuff were in real life you use “feelings”. When you reduce power in an airplane and you start falling from the sky you feel it, there is also the visual reference coming with it. You finally associate a picture with a feeling and you can react quicker to it.
In a simulator, there is no feeling, unless you get on the very expensive ones. So, when a noob that never ever had any real life flying experience tries to land there is a lot of things going on that he can only witness visually.
Even if he gets instructed in a squadron, there is the limit where the instructor will refer to visual cues only and can not say stuff like “when you feel the airplane sinking …etc”, everything is only visual.
I do not now if I get my point across, but some things are just harder to master on the simulator. It also depends on the virtual pilot. Some of them simply do not recognize bad situations or out of parameters situations. They just keep going and do not react. It may be surprising for someone who has experience, but mostly this is reflecting lack of understanding how things work.
Tips on how to land are not sufficient in that case, if someone can not correct it usually means he simply does not know how to. I think it is a good idea to explain why the airplane reacts like this in a given situation. Understanding what you do is sometimes much harder than it looks.
Speaking for myself: During flight training, I mostly mess up landing, especially on multi-engine simulators … the multi-engine training airplanes are usually very nose heavy, and you need to pull like a damned to get the nose where you want on flare. In the simulator I do not have the feeling in the stick, and I usually over pull or I do something stupid.
Now there is also the problem (if it one for those concerned) that some people simply do not spend the required amount of time learning how to fly the airplane, they focus on the combat part only and all the rest is less important to them ( and they are in their right to do so). Usually virtual squadrons who “force” people to fly properly have good results in basic flying.
Practice, practice and more practice and some more very good debriefings.
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Face the fact. It is a home simulator. All the vSQ’s training is not the same and further more not all of us are members on some squadron so some guys give priority on being a good fighter pilot/dogfighter or whatever and have totaly forgotten how to be an aviator, maybe not intentionally but they have. Some are balanced and some are more aviators than combat pilots…
Someone can judge the flying skill in a squad but not in general… I personally don’t fly df because I haven’t bought a trackir… this doesnt mean anything… -
I’ve heard about modern fighters that if the pilot gets into a close dogfight, he has made a SA-related mistake…
I’d love to see a Falcon-Online campaign with the rule that you only have 1 “life” for the whole campaign.
It would probably change the “gameplay” a bit to the right side!- Not saying that current campaigns are bad, it is just something that crossed my mind…
This is actually how I play the campaign in SP (I don’t do MP). I find it encourages me to not get shot down, which always happens anyways. I reset my logbook every time I die/eject in enemy territory.