How can you hold altitude while refueling.
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so really, why fly BMS? I dont see your logic.
For fun, learning, or whatever reason anyone wants. He obviously likes having a trim reset, why do you care that he uses it?
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For fun, learning, or whatever reason anyone wants. He obviously likes having a trim reset, why do you care that he uses it?
Probably because we are talking about advice on how to fly the jet during an AAR knowing that, IRL, the fist principle is to not use trim when a/c is not in a stabilized path (a turn is not a stabilized path) … Using trim for AAR during turns (as a RL pilot point of view) is indeed not a good advice.
But this is true if we consider that everybody has a good force sensitive stick … which is not the case for everyone.
Yes … BMS is a PC game. We can even land upside-down on the canopy without the fear of a brutal death. Yes it we can.
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Probably because we are talking about advice on how to fly the jet during an AAR knowing that, IRL, the fist principle is to not use trim when a/c is not in a stabilized path (a turn is not a stabilized path) … Using trim for AAR during turns (as a RL pilot point of view) is indeed not a good advice.
But this is true if we consider that everybody has a good force sensitive stick … which is not the case for everyone.
Yes … BMS is a PC game. We can even land upside-down on the canopy without the fear of a brutal death. Yes it we can.
that i will have to try
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Let’s make an hypothetical point:
1. Landing gains in BMS is “somehow lacking” it’s working great at slow speed but the effect at hi speed (read AAR speed 300 kts) are undermodelled
2. Turning will decrease lift, so power needs to be applied to maintain level flight
3. by applying power, the landing gain enabled with AAR door open, are moving the FPM upward, but as said in point 1 it’s undermodelled…
4. A user says 3 tap trim nose up helps …=> Even if real life says it’s not a good advice:
Maybe the guy actually just found a solution to something that in the BMS code doesn’t work optimally?
After all trimming up a notch is about the same thing as having the landing gain FPM up with power up as described earlier in this topicIt does make a lot of sense to me
And if it’s stupid but works, it ain’t stupidReal life advice is great, but some advices - although bad IRL - may very well be valid in a computer software which is nothing more than million slines of theoric code, Real life isn’t.
It does require openmindness to see it though
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@Red:
Let’s make an hypothetical point:
1. Landing gains in BMS is “somehow lacking” it’s working great at slow speed but the effect at hi speed (read AAR speed 300 kts) are undermodelled
2. Turning will decrease lift, so power needs to be applied to maintain level flight
3. by applying power, the landing gain enabled with AAR door open, are moving the FPM upward, but as said in point 1 it’s undermodelled…
4. A user says 3 tap trim nose up helps …=> Even if real life says it’s not a good advice:
Maybe the guy actually just found a solution to something that in the BMS code doesn’t work optimally?
After all trimming up a notch is about the same thing as having the landing gain FPM up with power up as described earlier in this topicIt does make a lot of sense to me
And if it’s stupid but works, it ain’t stupidReal life advice is great, but some advices - although bad IRL - may very well be valid in a computer software which is nothing more than million slines of theoric code, Real life isn’t.
It does require openmindness to see it though
Not a open-mindedness issue. To be honest … the same exist IRL. Despite the fact that some thing should not be done in a certain way, some pilot do it anyway because: easier, more comfortable, more efficient to their eyes … etc … whatever the reasons …
Is is also true in the sim world.
Look … I was always been told not to use trims in formation flight during evolution …
Now look the PAF … they are trimming all the time! :
(pitch rate during some manoeuvres is even given by the trim itself!)Hehe … yes, because it is way different …
I know. PAF are doing display flights which are not operational flights and formation is the finality. In combat or regular flight, it is different => Formation flight is just a tool.… So we understand that it might hep some ppl in sim to use trims … especially when stick is cheap ant not an FSSB or FCC. What I mean above is that Blu3Wolf has a point: Yes of course it is a sim.
Real jet doesn’t run on a PC…
On my PC … if I set “Air Refuelling” option to “Easy” in the SETUP/REALISM … and that’s it, no need to care about a/c stability nor PIO.
… Furthermore because for sure, trimming in turns is a bad choice simply because it is more difficult to be precise on the stick when having to push it rather than having to sustain a back pressure on it … so while you will be more comfortable during the turn, the draw back will be at wings roll out to wing level and will have to trim down or push the stick (but again yes, this is just theory and some ppl might have some “bad” habits and are, at the end, more efficient by using their ways).
Another tip … when I was
, the tip was to trim the jet a little bit down so that to go down, we do not have to push the stick, but we just had to release the pressure (a bit different than on F-16 I must admit because no side stick on AlphaJet …)Try this: fly in formation with one dot trim down … , then, go back trim neutral and fly in formation inverted (trims neutral) … you will see that it is waaay easier the maintain a back pressure than having to maintain a pressure forward …
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But if I follow Rybo’s logic, I set “Air Refuelling” option to “Easy” in the SETUP/REALISM and that’s it, no need to care about a/c stability not PIO!
That’s not “my logic.” Don’t put words into my mouth. I simply meant that in a sim environment some people choose to make compromises or do things differently.
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That’s not “my logic.” Don’t put words into my mouth. I simply meant that in a sim environment some people choose to make compromises or do things differently.
Ok. Sorry for putting words into your mouth. I have edited my post above accordingly.
I simply meant that in a sim environment some people choose to make compromises or do things differently.
I understand.
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Real jet doesnt have trim reset…
Having worked on the real aircraft for 20 years I’m pretty sure I already knew that. Thanks for clarifying it for everyone else though I guess. The fact of the matter is that some things won’t be 100% because we aren’t all sitting at home with full on viper pits rigs costing redonkulous money. With that in mind small short cuts like trim reset shouldn’t be that big of a deal.
If it is to you great. Don’t use it yourself.
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I use trim reset, but if I had a realistic pit with the trim dials w/ center detents, I wouldn’t need it.
It is mapped to a programmable key on my Logitech keyboard. Due to the fact that I type w/ the proficiency of a two-day old monkey, I figure it would take me the same amount of time that I would spend as a pilot reaching the trim dials and returning them to center, as the 0.75 sec. it takes me to look down and ID the correct key to reset trim.
It’s a compromise. I spent my money on other things first (HOTAS, rudders, MFD’s, ICP, TrackIR, monitors, etc.), but a realistic pit is on the bucket list. Ya know, the kind with the mechanical knobs and switches and all? Was following Mailmans’ progress for quite a while.
BTW…Has any one heard from him lately? Hope all is well with him and he is enjoying his pit too much to tell us about it!
Regards,
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@Red:
Although landing gains are implemented in BMS, and there’s a change in gains as the AAR door opens, I doubt what you explains is implemented in BMS? (might be wrong and the effect too subtle to be noticed, MavJp should be the one to rule this one)
If I put the throttle at idle and accelerate, the FPM will indeed stays at 1G level
if I open the AAR door, and do the same, I don’t see the FPM going up. So it’s the same behaviour.So with BMS in mind, and to answer the OP I think it’s irrelevant. Interesting, but not valid in BMS
(that said, I may have understoof why refuelling in the turn is harder in BMSOf course this is implemented since the real FLCS is in. How can you doubt it LOL
Fly 140kts steady AAR door open and push full throttle you will see your FPM going up big time
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@Red:
Let’s make an hypothetical point:
1. Landing gains in BMS is “somehow lacking” it’s working great at slow speed but the effect at hi speed (read AAR speed 300 kts) are undermodelled
2. Turning will decrease lift, so power needs to be applied to maintain level flight
3. by applying power, the landing gain enabled with AAR door open, are moving the FPM upward, but as said in point 1 it’s undermodelled…
4. A user says 3 tap trim nose up helps …=> Even if real life says it’s not a good advice:
Maybe the guy actually just found a solution to something that in the BMS code doesn’t work optimally?
After all trimming up a notch is about the same thing as having the landing gain FPM up with power up as described earlier in this topicIt does make a lot of sense to me
And if it’s stupid but works, it ain’t stupidReal life advice is great, but some advices - although bad IRL - may very well be valid in a computer software which is nothing more than million slines of theoric code, Real life isn’t.
It does require openmindness to see it though
Nothing is lacking in the FLCS , gain evolution with speed and pressure are of course fully coded , simply because the real FLCS is in .
I need to check though but IIRC the FLCS switches back to Cruise gain at 300kts even if AAR opened , I need to check that when I am back home (Friday evening)
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Nothing is lacking in the FLCS , gain evolution with speed and pressure are of course fully coded , simply because the real FLCS is in .
I need to check though but IIRC the FLCS switches back to Cruise gain at 300kts even if AAR opened , I need to check that when I am back home (Friday evening)
just did a test flight. as it seemed weird to me to switch from landing gains to cruise gains around the refueling speed.
i took off and climbed to FL180, when i opened up the AAR door and rolled inverted i established inverted level flight 220kts (it for some reason was losing altitude as soon as i let go of the stick but it was pitch authorative)
when i accelerated i eventually established hands off level inverted flight (not sure why this behaviour is made but i’d like to know just for knowledge sake) and accelerated all the way to 450 (M0.92) inverted without touching the stick once.
it remained in landing gains (or at least pitch authorative) the entire time. so i believe i could make the conclusion that it does not go to cruise gains which is a +1g.PS: it might have been AoA that caused the drop in pitch at those speeds as it is beyond 11 degrees AoA
edit: the reason i flew inverted was to test wether i was in cruise or landing gains as i would suddenly plumet towards the ground if i went into cruise gains.
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i said i need to check, i worked so much on f18 flcs lately that i can be confused (f18 half /full tef laws revert to auto at a certain speed…)
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I need to check though but IIRC the FLCS switches back to Cruise gain at 300kts even if AAR opened , I need to check that when I am back home (Friday evening)
Thanks mate
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Hi!
I am practicing refueling. I am always fail to hold altitude. It’s slightly up and down while holding altitude under boom.
That’s my major issue now. Would you share your know how? I am using Hotas Cougar and Saiteck combat rudder.Bstar, the thing that helped me was an analogy- When I’m driving down the road, in order to hold a straight line my steering wheel is in constant, but small, motion. AAR feels just like that.