The Future of Falcon BMS 3rd Party Developers
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Hi guys.
As you all know,in the past few months i have been a very activist in 3rd party situation regarding 3D modeling and/or 3rd party applications useful for our loved sim.
This post it’s a “cry” for a serious and organized reunion among us to discuss the future of all of us that are not BMS Devs but needless to say what to contribute and help the community bringing our instruments (or models) to the sim.
BMS Team is doing a phenomenal work for the past 10 years but as saying goes “They come and go, but storytelling is forever”.
Therefore what i’m asking is a serious debate among us regarding:
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3D modeling - The future os 3ds Max and other modeling softwares regarding Falcon BMS applications ( update? / a new platform? / original programs and commands updated to a newer version?)
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Information sharing and documentation release
- Ghater the “old farts” / making a documentation library of some of the 3rd party softwares (3DS max applications for BMS, FM/AFM software and knowledge, theaters development and upgrade to newer versions)
- Making a GO/NOGO list of all helpers that BMS Devs use for development that are “forbidden” outside the Devs world ( Flight Model Manager latest Version for example)
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As the years move along we need to define again the definitions of what can and cannot be done in terms of 3rd party softwares and mods. Many standards from 10 years ago are obsolete. (poly definition in 3D models is one of many examples). We need a debate to update the definitions what is acceptable.****
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We need more technical data about some BMS programing areas. No one around here could tell me in the past few months for example how to write an AFM data for an aircraft but surely some of us know how to and could publish a paper to explain for example.
Apart from this topics, in the past few months and since 4.34 came out I see this forum flooded with misunderstandings, hateful and sarcastics comments everywhere. What’s going on? Why people don’t give straight answers and try to understand different points of view?
We are not in a "D* measuring contest" and of course no one i guess needs petty around here.**Well guys sorry for this post and I truly hope that we can have good debate and reach some conclusions and actions here.
Happy flightsJoão “Decimal” Glória
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Well. I agree on all.
My self on the same page for years.
Fighting the falcon monster.
Besides the “find them as we found them” answer which is the reinventing the wheel method i believe no-one is taking the initiative to organize and maintain such.
In my own initiative i tried the hotlist but you can’t call it an efficient way.
Theater devs or 3d modelers dont have much of free time i presume to provide docs or guides or hints and tips in a structured way like guide or something. They do by answering to specific issues and valuable info is scattered all over the place and many times gone.Three real challenge - issue we will face sooner or later is falcon exporter.
Wave Dave is gone and the tool is dead, I’m afraid the coffee for producing it is also not available to the team.For example of im not wrong there are new dofs and switches and scripts with 4.34? How are they manageable without 3ds max plugin update or without lod editor?
Mortesil is banned (im not saying is bad or good) and we don’t have anti news, i believe he can be found at FO forum. Let’s hope he’s on track with his tool and the ban didn’t affect his tool development.
That would be a trace of light for the future and features.
Edit: i forgot Monster’s tool, this also needs to be updated.Now what we do?
Wiki?
Video guides?
Learn how to build 3ds max falcon plugin?
find Ppl to start the above and maintain it?
Whip 3d modelers and devs to provide guides and tools? [emoji38]Things are not that bad like we are on the edge of a cliff, even if it feels like it.
Manos for example and nove and others (sorry can’t name all, nor remember all) started from ground zero and found the way and they fight the monster.
They are fine examples that the monster can be fought.The most needed thing is stamina and free time.
Free time is a major issue (for me) along with energy, many times i want to do so many things but when i get back home from work i dont have the energy to sit on the pc and fire up 3ds max. From time to time my falcon energy rises and i move on on some projects im working, but thats not good, sure better than nothing but I’m not satisfied with my self and progress.
Somme guys have free time but they lack the basics to start from zero.Well it’s hard as its hard for devs and betas… So as a community we must do our part.
So who’s up for the job to take us to the next level?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
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Arty!!
Amazing speach
Three real challenge - issue we will face sooner or later is falcon exporter.
Wave Dave is gone and the tool is dead, I’m afraid the coffee for producing it is also not available to the team.For example of im not wrong there are new dofs and switches and scripts with 4.34? How are they manageable without 3ds max plugin update or without lod editor?
The 1M dollar question my friend. Im struggling everyday to understand how to keep it up. And what tools the Devs use to keep the new dofs up to date. Why this is not share among us?
Learn how to build 3ds max falcon plugin?
Another good one. Without Wave to guide us i’m afraid we have two options.
1. Beg to the Dev team to share what they have for themselves
2. Find a good Informatic Engineer to help us on thisAlso don’t forget tools such as FMM that are restricted to Dev team and are a big helper for us modelers to finish our work.
Also a little bit more information in FM/AFM is a must!!Also we need at least a resumed changelog each time an update is taking place.
Modelers and theaters devs are on the shadows struggling to know what to change each time
Manos for example and nove and others (sorry can’t name all, nor remember all) started from ground zero and found the way and they fight the monster.
They are fine examples that the monster can be fought.Manos, Nove and myself are the most active now in 3D modeling (outside the dev team). We are helping each other but that’s not enough.
We need guidelines for the future and of course have more people interested in learning.Mortesil is banned (im not saying is bad or good) and we don’t have anti news, i believe he can be found at FO forum. Let’s hope he’s on track with his tool and the ban didn’t affect his tool development.
That would be a trace of light for the future and features.And what loss that was!!! We need more Mortesil´s among us to have a fresh perspective!!!
So who’s up for the job to take us to the next level?
IM 100% IN MY FRIEND!!!
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Mortesil is not banned. He had a temporary ban for some resons like any others including some devs had but still he is not persona non grata here. The fact is that he decided not to share his software (as least here) and this is something we can do nothing about.
FFM is not restricted to the team so to say … It is just not to a mature lavel for release as far as I know and won’t be any real help is one don’t know how to use it exept to organize .dat contents.
BMS team is not a separated entity but just an organized part of the comunity. As arty well said, everyone can contribute according to his knowleges. We are already 110% buisy, we can’t really do more.
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Mortesil is not banned. He had a temporary ban for some resons like any others including some devs had but still he is not persona non grata here. The fact is that he decided not to share his software (as least here) and this is something we can do nothing about.
FFM is not restricted to the team so to say … It is just not to a mature lavel for release as far as I know and won’t be any real help is one don’t know how to use it exept to organize .dat contents.
BMS team is not a separated entity but just an organized part of the comunity. As arty well said, everyone can contribute according to his knowleges. We are already 110% buisy, we can’t really do more.
Thanx DeeJay. We know ur full busy.
I’ll say again what i say for years.
Sacrificing a pone in chess helps win the match.
If one from the team was drawn or had as main responsibility to structure a bridge and organize the open community by gathering the info needed and providing it in a way to be available through time would help greatly. Community members also are busy and they don’t do it in a structured way. Everyone for him self providing here and there.
Why be from the dev team? Cause the team makes sacrifices that the community doesnt. Sure the community can do it. But still one person at least from the team must play the role of the bridge providing the raw material.
U already do that and respond and provide info to ppl even when is not your field.
We are all caught up in the process of oh i have to do this and that and the other and new guys don’t know where to start.Let me add to this point… From time to time new guys ask for my help ( [emoji38] like i know all or im structured by my self ) my door is always open, BUT please guys open a thread and start bombing. Be persistent and politely get to your answers. Others dont ignore you cause you don’t matter, they are just used to the reinvent the wheel process as they faced it also. Keep on, someone will come by.
Some dont get answers cause we are even tired to respond like use the search button and they get discouraged. Others waste time on insignificant things when if (big if here) resources where used better miracles could happen.
But hey it is just me robin hood.And weavy dave and mortesil if you are reading please reconsider joining back or providing the code to the team so that others can pick up or benefit from it. U r unjustly to your self by doing other wise.
Grow up, those things happen. If each one of us insist on their opinion nothing will happen. Try better ways to prove that your opinion is the right and only way, take a step back and prove you are on the team and even if you don’t agree you play along.
From personal experience ive done it with Aegean and IKAROS which i thought of it as pointless while EMF existed.
On my end loss of time for a small team for the Aegean add it was only for the 320 sqdrn and IKAROS now i dont know if it ever will be converted for 4.34.
The loss of time, cause ill be misunderstood by my close mates, is cause in the same time i and they could create and provide for the whole community and we reinvented the wheel for some times.
Why i did it? Wrong criteria. I thought i owe to my team as they helped me, education etc being and guilty as i was an ass trying to force my opinion in the way past.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
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Interesting read. I’m back! Lets get started……
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Three real challenge - issue we will face sooner or later is falcon exporter.
Wave Dave is gone and the tool is dead, I’m afraid the coffee for producing it is also not available to the team.I don’t think either is true. I’m not involved in 3D models making but I know that WD is around and the tool isn’t dead.
Interesting read. I’m back! Lets get started……
Hey nice to see you around
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@Dee-Jay - I will not make any judgement about Mortesil situation, simply because i don’t know the whole story and i don’t want to say anything that isn’t true. Regarding FMM if it’s true what you are saying then someone put link for the latest release please. We will manage eventually, as we didi with many other applications that we learn from scratch
Also that the main point of this threat. Make the bridge between Devs and 3rd Party modders a little closer and share some information about it.As i said in the first post i appreciate very much the effort put in each update and release of BMS and the Dev team is doing a amazing work, but the way that i feel that as the tome pass the dev team is more apart from the general 3rd party developers is to me evident. As arty said you and few other are still the best guys around that try to help and answers the most questions here so +1 to you all.
@I-Hawk - When we say the tool is dead is that the latest release is for 3ds Max 2014 and no further updates have been done. As the years gone by more Dof, switches, etc, etc are going to be available and still the tool remains un updated.
I use it and it’s not dead per se but it will be in the next few years i’m sure.From my side i promised already that i will when my IRL permits some small 3DS / Falcon Exporter torurials. Just for the basics since i started a few months ago only and i’m learning from trial and error.
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For AFM information
Read nasa TP 1538
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Flight Models
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For AFM information
Read nasa TP 1538
Mav
I’ve read not completely but bit of Nasa TP 1538.
That’s not what i’m searching for.
Several examples:
maxdispl prestress Stif(K) Elasti(F) Stif2(K2) Defzone1 latfrict slippct wheelfrict BRAKEfric ANGSLIP ANGBREAK TireLatelasticity TireLonglasticity
2.0 0.0 15560 1500 35000 0.2 0.020 0.75 0.003 0 130 140 0.0005 500
What means Stif(K) Elasti(F) Stif2(K2) (for example) and how it translates to game in tearms of spring behaviour in the gears
Other:
LIFT COEFFICIENT CL
1.0 # Table Multiplier
Mach : 0.000
-0.1868 -0.1245 -0.0623 0.0000 0.0623 0.1245 0.1868 0.2490 0.3113 0.3735
I’ve been asking a long time about CL / CD behaviour in BMS
If NACA CL/CD tables are not direct aplicable how to calculate such values for BMS?One more before i Bored you to dead (FM this time)
ALTITUDE BREAKPOINTS
ALPHA BREAKPOINTS
DYNAMIC PRESSURE BREAKPOINTS
RCMDMX - PEAK ROLL RATE- I don’t understand what this does in the behaviour of the plane in game.
You are one of the main creators of FM and AFM data files for BMS. Is to much to ask for simplified resume and explanation of the values and descriptions involved?
Everytime you send us to the NASA TP 1538. Do you understand that not everyone is familiarized with such complicated mathematics?
I´m an aeronautical engineer and im struggling with some information around.I understand that what i’m asking is a lot of work but…
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Let me be honest with you.
I understand your concerns. But I am spending quite often something like 5h a day (not only during my holidays where this amount can rise up to 12h a day … sometimes more) enjoying working on the sim an see the results. I don’t like writing pdf and my english is not good. Sometimes I would even not really have a real idea how to explain some things about database … It is already hard enouth internal, sharing own knowledges with the community is something over me. I do it from time to time here and there and thats it.
So if it is to spend that tile writing pdf and not working any more on the future 4.35, I will simply and naturally stop everything and will eventually quite the community. Somtime coming here and reading some comments make me sad and it is tiering when we tries to explain some things that ppl don’t want to hear …
So I won’t probably never participate to such enterprise. I simply can’t and would probably give up quite rapidly.
Some ppl from dev comes here to give you some hints, take it. And do your best as we does. You know, even internally we do not always have the answers, and it is not rare that we have to discover things by ourselves. Our strong point is of course coders, but also the fact that we are “organised” and we used to know who to ask about a given point. And this is not different than here. Regroup all the 3rd party devs together, and sare your own knowledges together.
I can’t tell you more. I have perso ally nothings more to offer.
Maybe some other devs could (?) … But we are not numerous. And not all of them comes on the ppl forum as we does because they prefer to focus 100% on their internal tasks.
Sorry. I hope you will understand.
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Mav
I’ve read not completely but bit of Nasa TP 1538.
That’s not what i’m searching for.
Several examples:
maxdispl prestress Stif(K) Elasti(F) Stif2(K2) Defzone1 latfrict slippct wheelfrict BRAKEfric ANGSLIP ANGBREAK TireLatelasticity TireLonglasticity
2.0 0.0 15560 1500 35000 0.2 0.020 0.75 0.003 0 130 140 0.0005 500
What means Stif(K) Elasti(F) Stif2(K2) (for example) and how it translates to game in tearms of spring behaviour in the gears
Other:
LIFT COEFFICIENT CL
1.0 # Table Multiplier
Mach : 0.000
-0.1868 -0.1245 -0.0623 0.0000 0.0623 0.1245 0.1868 0.2490 0.3113 0.3735
I’ve been asking a long time about CL / CD behaviour in BMS
If NACA CL/CD tables are not direct aplicable how to calculate such values for BMS?One more before i Bored you to dead (FM this time)
ALTITUDE BREAKPOINTS
ALPHA BREAKPOINTS
DYNAMIC PRESSURE BREAKPOINTS
RCMDMX - PEAK ROLL RATE- I don’t understand what this does in the behaviour of the plane in game.
You are one of the main creators of FM and AFM data files for BMS. Is to much to ask for simplified resume and explanation of the values and descriptions involved?
Everytime you send us to the NASA TP 1538. Do you understand that not everyone is familiarized with such complicated mathematics?
I´m an aeronautical engineer and im struggling with some information around.I understand that what i’m asking is a lot of work but…
Stiffness ans elasticity are well stiffness (spring stiffness) and amortization (fluid amortization) , this is standard gear modeling
Those values shall be changed depending on aircraft massThere are two areas defined based on compression length and stiffness are defined for each area
The second zone is defined by a percentage of the total length “defzone1”
All other coefficients should not be touched
How are calculated CD/CL? Sorry but can’t tell you in a few linea , this is proper engineering classes you would need
The HFFM are retroengineerd from EM charts
Took me years -
Let me be honest with you.
I understand your concerns. But I am spending quite often something like 5h a day (not only during my holidays where this amount can rise up to 12h a day … sometimes more) enjoying working on the sim an see the results. I don’t like writing pdf and my english is not good. Sometimes I would even not really have a real idea how to explain some things about database … It is already hard enouth internal, sharing own knowledges with the community is something over me. I do it from time to time here and there and thats it.
So if it is to spend that tile writing pdf and not working any more on the future 4.35, I will simply and naturally stop everything and will eventually quite the community. Somtime coming here and reading some comments make me sad and it is tiering when we tries to explain some things that ppl don’t want to hear …
So I won’t probably never participate to such enterprise. I simply can’t and would probably give up quite rapidly.
Some ppl from dev comes here to give you some hints, take it. And do your best as we does. You know, even internally we do not always have the answers, and it is not rare that we have to discover things by ourselves. Our strong point is of course coders, but also the fact that we are “organised” and we used to know who to ask about a given point. And this is not different than here. Regroup all the 3rd party devs together, and sare your own knowledges together.
I can’t tell you more. I have perso ally nothings more to offer.
Maybe some other devs could (?) … But we are not numerous. And not all of them comes on the ppl forum as we does because they prefer to focus 100% on their internal tasks.
Sorry. I hope you will understand.
Dee-Jay thank you for your wise words
You and me don’t always agree around here but i admit you are spot on, and i understand the enormous job and effort the Devs are putting in each release.
I believe you understant my point.
I wiil continue to stay focus and do my best to help the comunity.You make an excellent argument.
If the Devs and moderator agree i will try to create a post dedicated to try to convey all 3rd party devs ( 3D modellers, software and add ons and theaters devs) on single post kind of a 3rd party wiki page
Again we will need your help. You do have the most updated tools and i believe that some of them should be used outside the official dev team ( my 2 cents on this).
Also your knowledge should be preserved in a good way -
Stiffness ans elasticity are well stiffness (spring stiffness) and amortization (fluid amortization) , this is standard gear modeling
Those values shall be changed depending on aircraft massThere are two areas defined based on compression length and stiffness are defined for each area
The second zone is defined by a percentage of the total length “defzone1”
All other coefficients should not be touched
How are calculated CD/CL? Sorry but can’t tell you in a few linea , this is proper engineering classes you would need
The HFFM are retroengineerd from EM charts
Took me yearsMav i’m an aeronautical engineer and i know how to calculate CL/CD charts but in the conventional way using wing foils, reynolds numbers etc etc.
But the data factors used in the dat files intrigue me you see?If i may do you mind in a near future that i contact you via PM and we cal talk about this in order to help me out?
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You make an excellent argument.
Really???
Weakest argument I’ve ever seen!!!
Cop out!!
informal
avoid doing something that one ought to do.
“he copped out at the last moment”
synonyms: avoid, shirk, skip, dodge, sidestep, skirt round, bypass, steer clear of, evade, escape, run away from, shrink from, slide out of, back out of, pull out of, turn one’s back on; MoreNot just DJ, but the entire BMS team!!
EXAMPLE: You’re able to direct and coordinate with 2 different entities to release 2 Add on theaters just after a BMS update is released……Yet the rest of the community is left in the DARK!!!
C9
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@Cloud:
Really???
Weakest argument I’ve ever seen!!!
Cop out!!
informal
avoid doing something that one ought to do.
“he copped out at the last moment”
synonyms: avoid, shirk, skip, dodge, sidestep, skirt round, bypass, steer clear of, evade, escape, run away from, shrink from, slide out of, back out of, pull out of, turn one’s back on; MoreNot just DJ, but the entire BMS team!!
EXAMPLE: You’re able to direct and coordinate with 2 different entities to release 2 Add on theaters just after a BMS update is released……Yet the rest of the community is left in the DARK!!!
C9
Cloud i was referring the argument and suggestion about Regrouping all the 3rd party devs together.
Exactly why i started this post.
I hope for more opening regarding information and tools being shared among us merly “mortals”The issue about the theaters was the tip off for me because this time it was completely in dark for sure.
I’m trying to bring us all closer to better agreement of the future in the sim development outside the Dev team.
I can understand both sides being of course in the side of the outsiders that struggle everydayWe need their help and i believe they need ours…
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Hi Could9!
Balkans is handle by Cougar and EMF by (I do not remember exactly who) … They are BMS team members.
Believe me or not, they didn’t had much more support than anybody else … You can ask Cougar about it.They’ve just had “more time” because they had converted the theatre using Btest version … But they had to face the same issue than you by taking the stock DB as reference. It wasn’t much different than what you have to do right now.
Anyway … As said, there is not much I can do. If it is to spend all my time here and writing PDF… I would rather enjoy more time with my wife when I am at home and do other stuff.
And I don’t see anybody from the 3rd party community writing complete docs about how do build a theatre, so I am not sure anybody can blame me. And even if I had the time and wish, I do not master the entire stuff. Only a small part of it. I would need several ppl to do the same at the same time. I wouldn’t be able to do it alone.
I am 100% sure that you have more general knowledges about campaing and theatres edition than I have.
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I have to agree with Dee-Jay. I was in the btest team, therefore I started early on, and I never bothered any BMS dev about the EMF theatre during the process.