Dcs World Viper and Falcon BMS
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I have a question of my own which I think this thread would be the best for. While the F-16 in BMS is recommended to be the more realistic jet the same question about other jets in the sim is no less significant. In that case we are dealing with flying other jets option Vs modules. For example, how well does the MIG-29 (with all it’s different variants) perform in BMS. Better still, the SU-25 which maneuvers better then any other fighter jet once you try to gun it! In as far as the most accurate sim, modeling the accurate performance of other jets is no less important than modeling the atmospheric ambience for the viper.
Other jets are modeled just fine as a “AI aircraft”. If you try to fly them then you will find possibly there is no dedicated 3D cockpit and of course all avionics are same as the F-16.
However, our AI is ok and working.The SU-25 is not more maneuverable than anything… if you saw it doing funny crap, then it’s a bug, don’t confuse it with features. And bugs are to be squashed, eventually.
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BMS is great realism but I think it should add some of this:
It seems these all sounded exactly the same
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BMS is great realism but I think it should add some of this:
Here you go for the BMS F-16:
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?37692-New-External-F16-Fighter-sounds
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Other jets are modeled just fine as a “AI aircraft”. If you try to fly them then you will find possibly there is no dedicated 3D cockpit and of course all avionics are same as the F-16.
However, our AI is ok and working.The SU-25 is not more maneuverable than anything… if you saw it doing funny crap, then it’s a bug, don’t confuse it with features. And bugs are to be squashed, eventually.
The ai in bms is ok and probably better than other sims, and better than dcs I understand. But the ai still needs a lot of love. I love bms and think it’s amazing what you guys have done. But Dee-Jay was talking about things that are showstoppers for him in DCS. For me seeing a lot of ai aircraft getting shot down when they go up against even basic level of air defenses is taking away a lot of realism for me. Recreating large missions as described in books like Vipers in the storm is also not possible in bms without having most of the strike package shot down. Of course this has been an issue in every sim I have flown so far. So yes, bms ai is probably better than other sims, but still not great.
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The ai in bms is ok and probably better than other sims, and better than dcs I understand. But the ai still needs a lot of love. I love bms and think it’s amazing what you guys have done. But Dee-Jay was talking about things that are showstoppers for him in DCS. For me seeing a lot of ai aircraft getting shot down when they go up against even basic level of air defenses is taking away a lot of realism for me. Recreating large missions as described in books like Vipers in the storm is also not possible in bms without having most of the strike package shot down. Of course this has been an issue in every sim I have flown so far. So yes, bms ai is probably better than other sims, but still not great.
Well depends who you want to fly the large package. AI is way difficult to apply real time tactics. As we know each mission is a unique case. So you understand that this is rather not feasible for ai. But if you want that super large package to be flawn by humans only then things get very very exciting… Don’t forget squadrons cooperation and joint missions in case one squadron can’t fill all the slots for a huge package. There are such and very very realistic and demanding. You can’t be a lone wolf or a lets go up to shoot guys vpilot or a i have a high kill ratio guy and expect to do well or even basics on such packages. There lies the essence of bms. Not all are sweet, cause the main issue here is the level of coordination and knowledge of the vpilots. But since you want simulation and realism, the good captain they say its proven on a storm, like are you up for the challenge of realism or just shoot em up? Inset coin please.
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The ai in bms is ok and probably better than other sims, and better than dcs I understand. But the ai still needs a lot of love. I love bms and think it’s amazing what you guys have done. But Dee-Jay was talking about things that are showstoppers for him in DCS. For me seeing a lot of ai aircraft getting shot down when they go up against even basic level of air defenses is taking away a lot of realism for me. Recreating large missions as described in books like Vipers in the storm is also not possible in bms without having most of the strike package shot down. Of course this has been an issue in every sim I have flown so far. So yes, bms ai is probably better than other sims, but still not great.
DC in BMS simulates full scale conflict. During first and especially second war in the Persian Gulf enemy airforce was almost completely grounded. This is not the case here in BMS. Even Vietnam war was a different thing.
While I agree there is always a room for improvement in AI department I really wish other titles have a fraction of BMS AI behaviours implemented.
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But Dee-Jay was talking about things that are showstoppers for him in DCS. For me seeing a lot of ai aircraft getting shot down when they go up against even basic level of air defenses
I got your point. As you said, nothing is perfect. But in terms of priority, what you are describing in not on the top of the list unless you do not fly a mission from A to Z. Before reaching FLOT and ENY area, AIs must be able to taxi, depart, join, push on time … etc …
and we are missing some details here …getting shot down when they go up against even basic level of air defenses
Precisely what?
AAA? … Should be have AIs immune to AAA by only jinking?
SA-2? Should be have AIs immune to SA-2?
SA-7? Should be have AIs immune to SA-7?… what should they do on each situations? Can you describe all the possible cases?
What you are describing here a complete different level of implementation than “just” making an AI able to land on an airfield without colliding with the preceding a/c, or choosing an active runway QFU depending on wind direction and strength …
AIs are robots … the most difficult with robots, is making them behaving like human and being credible. They must not be completely perfect, but not completely dumb either. The balance is the most tricky stuff in AI coding. Simply defining it before coding it is already a big deal (IFF is a good example here). What you are talking about are not basic stuff. It is way advanced programming. -
lol i love it that I’m quoted as a dcs fanboy… :rofl:
No prob DJ.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
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lol i love it that I’m quoted as a dcs fanboy… :rofl:
No prob DJ.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
Fixed. And personally, I would NOT qualify Tomcatter31 as “fanboy”. He is only sharing his thoughts about where THE "S"imulation should be.
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Well yesterday I decided to fly a campaign mission in 4.34. The first one in 4.34 for me. I usually fly TE’s and it’s been a while since I flew in a campaign. But had quite a few issues there as well. Some simple things like my pilot voice and AWACS talking at the same time. I asked AWACS for a picture and as soon as AWACS started talking, my pilot voice started to call out bandits making AWACS impossible to hear. This is easily fixed of course by disabling my own pilot voice. But AWACS also stopped talking halfway through transmissions sometimes. Like Viper 2-1, I have 2 groups…first group…then nothing anymore. This happened 2 or 3 times during the mission. Then when I RTB’d at the end of the mission there was an aircraft stuck on the landing runway. He was just sitting there and was still there when I was shut down on the ramp. And after shut down I noticed ATC calling out to an AI flight if there was a problem so I started to look around and noticed some AI jets pointing at each other getting stuck trying to taxi. I admit these type of problems in BMS are quite rare and was quite surprised to run into these things, but all in all the campaign mission was a bit messy this time. Not what I’m used to in BMS.
Bms coders and testers work on their free time. We as community value much such reports pin bugs or issues, but please make a right and detailed report. There is s thread for such and all are looked once the details are there so that the developer can reproduce and spot the issue and eventually solve it.
So please take the time and reproduce - verify your issue, go to the bugs report thread and read what is needed, report your issue.
Saying so as you see you got an answer that such thing never happened to me all those years with zillion of falcon hours.
So please be helpful as the whole community here tries to be to make it even better, also this is our secret ingredient of the BMS magic recipe.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
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Fixed. And personally, I would qualify Tomcatter31 as “fanboy”. He is only sharing his thoughts about where THE "S"imulation should be.
wouldn’t not would.
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DC in BMS simulates full scale conflict. During first and especially second war in the Persian Gulf enemy airforce was almost completely grounded. This is not the case here in BMS. Even Vietnam war was a different thing.
While I agree there is always a room for improvement in AI department I really wish other titles have a fraction of BMS AI behaviours implemented.
It’s too bad bombing hangars on OCA missions has no effect. Although the Tornadoes busted up taxiways coming out of the bunkers, probably cuz it was cheaper than using PGM’s on them in Desert Storm.
Makes me wonder, do the Tornadoes in BMS have that weapon they used for OCA on taxiways in the Gulf War?
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The ai in bms is ok and probably better than other sims, and better than dcs I understand. But the ai still needs a lot of love. I love bms and think it’s amazing what you guys have done. But Dee-Jay was talking about things that are showstoppers for him in DCS. For me seeing a lot of ai aircraft getting shot down when they go up against even basic level of air defenses is taking away a lot of realism for me. Recreating large missions as described in books like Vipers in the storm is also not possible in bms without having most of the strike package shot down. Of course this has been an issue in every sim I have flown so far. So yes, bms ai is probably better than other sims, but still not great.
The AI in BMS is OKish. Sure not perfect, but OK. The missions planning in BMS is also good and it gets better all the time (Work on that is being done continuously to find better balance etc). But this isn’t easy. But there is also the point that maybe you think a war should be like the Gulf wars were, Almost pefect air superiority, dumb SAMs and enemy jets and blind AAA. Well no then… real war against strong armies like China, Russia and even an emergency war against DPRK where you will need to punch them before they will punch you, may get the leaders and Generals to send fighters to try and do their best. In a world without perfect stealth technology, without infinite smart weapons that can take anything from miles, you will need to launch such crazy missions and sometimes you will loose forces while at it. No perfect “real” wars exist in reality.
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It’s too bad bombing hangars on OCA missions has no effect.
Are you 100% sure? … have you thought about the consequences of this?
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The AI in BMS is OKish. Sure not perfect, but OK. The missions planning in BMS is also good and it gets better all the time (Work on that is being done continuously to find better balance etc). But this isn’t easy. But there is also the point that maybe you think a war should be like the Gulf wars were, Almost pefect air superiority, dumb SAMs and enemy jets and blind AAA. Well no then… real war against strong armies like China, Russia and even an emergency war against DPRK where you will need to punch them before they will punch you, may get the leaders and Generals to send fighters to try and do their best. In a world without perfect stealth technology, without infinite smart weapons that can take anything from miles, you will need to launch such crazy missions and sometimes you will loose forces while at it. No perfect “real” wars exist in reality.
I agree that mission planning in BMS is good and agree that AI in BMS is ok, but could be better. I also realize it’s very complex. It’s probably better in BMS than other sims. But yes, I think it would be more realistic if things were a bit more one sided. I wasn’t talking about a war with Russia or China. Those would be different scenario’s, although even Russia I have my doubts in a conventional scenario. What they showed in Syria, Ukraine and Georgia in their campaigns was far from impressive. I think western militaries are far more capable. China is a different story though. But sure if you go up against China or Russia you can expect more losses. Falcon originally however simulates a campaign against the DPRK. And I don’t think the DPRK is really much more capable than Iraq was in 1991 with regard to them facing western air power anyway. Yes, a campaign against the DPRK in real life would probably get very ugly, but with regard to air power I think losses on the blue side are far too high. When you read books of the Strike Eagles in Desert Storm or Vipers in the storm you can see that it wasn’t only stealth fighters that went to Baghdad. These books you can read that F-15E’s and F-16’s also frequently flew missions in defended area’s sometimes even without weasel support and yet losses were minimal. Same story in Allied Force. Same story when Israel was facing countries around them. So yes, I think countries with western training and western equipment are quite a bit superior over countries that use Russian equipment and perhaps Russian training. In the cold war it was regarded that it was quality vs quantity. Falcon however and most sims don’t really reflect this.
Precisely what?
AAA? … Should be have AIs immune to AAA by only jinking?
SA-2? Should be have AIs immune to SA-2?
SA-7? Should be have AIs immune to SA-7?… what should they do on each situations? Can you describe all the possible cases?
What you are describing here a complete different level of implementation than “just” making an AI able to land on an airfield without colliding with the preceding a/c, or choosing an active runway QFU depending on wind direction and strength …
AIs are robots … the most difficult with robots, is making them behaving like human and being credible. They must not be completely perfect, but not completely dumb either. The balance is the most tricky stuff in AI coding. Simply defining it before coding it is already a big deal (IFF is a good example here). What you are talking about are not basic stuff. It is way advanced programming.Fair enough, I agree that it’s on a completely different level. I’m not suggesting that AI should be immune to SA’2’s or AAA etc. However western militaries like I wrote above are really well trained to deal with air to air and surface to air threats. and sims don’t really reflect this yet. Possible improvements could be to change the AI’s attack profile over targets? Things I have observed in my Falcon years for example is AI circling over target area’s with 300 kts until they released all their bombs. For example, back in 4.33 (forgive me if this has changed in 4.34, because like I said, it’s been a while since I’ve flown campaign missions) I flew a tarcap for other F-16’s. My CAP station was for 20 minutes. However, after 20 minutes the bombers were still orbiting the target area not having dropped all their bombs yet. On datalink I could see that these jets were over the target area for more than 20 minutes. And by the end most got shot down. Would it perhaps be an idea to have AI do one pass, haul ass rather than have them stay over a defended area for so long? In JF18 I had more control over how the AI would fly over a target. If I set a waypoint at 500 kts, I noticed the survival of the AI aircraft got a lot better. In falcon they seem to fly a pre programmed attack profile regardless of the time/speed I set for a waypoint.
For my own wingman I think it would be helpful if you would have a go defensive command. One that you can use inside 30 NM. Outside 30NM it’s of little use IMHO. Wingmen generally stay offensive until a missile against them goes active. So if I anticipate a missile being launched against us and I could tell my wingman basically to do a 180 and go warp speed, this would already help quite a bit I think for his survival. Right now if you keep your wingman on a certain stand off distance against AA12/amraam equipped bandits it goes quite well for the first attack. But if you have to re-engage after that, then there’s not much you can do to help your wingman anymore. Because AI have a tendency to keep closing the distance towards a bandit which puts them inside AA12 or amraam range. And he’s not really able to defend himself. If you can tell your wingman to go defensive at a certain distance or to create/stay at a distance rather than fly into the Mig soup would be quite helpful.Fixed. And personally, I would NOT qualify Tomcatter31 as “fanboy”. He is only sharing his thoughts about where THE "S"imulation should be.
Exactly. I’m not a DCS fanboy. Just don’t think all of the criticism towards DCS is fair. Indeed just sharing my thoughts. I don’t want to come across as unappreciative. I love BMS and think you guys do amazing work. I wouldn’t invest my time in posting my thoughts on how it could be improved if I didn’t think the sim was worth it. I don’t have the talent that you guys have to improve the sim myself. But I think BMS is amazing and have flown 3000+ hours in it and plan to fly many more.
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Ehm… nevermind.
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Tomcatter31, you are doing relevant analysis and your criticism is quite constructive IMO.
Lets see what the future will brings. I do personally have no doubt that someday, AIs will have better and better brain. But all takes time. Lately it was improvements in BVR. Next, it could be Defensive brain, or Ground attack … or …
Can’t do everything at the same time.
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HI
i think the most important thing BMS should update is the way of setting Host server.
Hope it would set up host in those dedicated server without GPU.
I knew there is a thread about how to set up host in dedicated server with no GPU. But this need to do something additional that are quite strange to those people like me have little IT knowledge.
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I agree that mission planning in BMS is good and agree that AI in BMS is ok, but could be better. I also realize it’s very complex. It’s probably better in BMS than other sims. But yes, I think it would be more realistic if things were a bit more one sided. I wasn’t talking about a war with Russia or China. Those would be different scenario’s, although even Russia I have my doubts in a conventional scenario. What they showed in Syria, Ukraine and Georgia in their campaigns was far from impressive. I think western militaries are far more capable. China is a different story though. But sure if you go up against China or Russia you can expect more losses. Falcon originally however simulates a campaign against the DPRK. And I don’t think the DPRK is really much more capable than Iraq was in 1991 with regard to them facing western air power anyway. Yes, a campaign against the DPRK in real life would probably get very ugly, but with regard to air power I think losses on the blue side are far too high. When you read books of the Strike Eagles in Desert Storm or Vipers in the storm you can see that it wasn’t only stealth fighters that went to Baghdad. These books you can read that F-15E’s and F-16’s also frequently flew missions in defended area’s sometimes even without weasel support and yet losses were minimal. Same story in Allied Force. Same story when Israel was facing countries around them. So yes, I think countries with western training and western equipment are quite a bit superior over countries that use Russian equipment and perhaps Russian training. In the cold war it was regarded that it was quality vs quantity. Falcon however and most sims don’t really reflect this.
In the Yom kipur war the IAF took many losses due to enemy SAMs and AAA, and that is an AF with a 30:1 kill ration in air combats over the years. So no, when there is a real war with overwhelming armies, quality isn’t the only thing that counts.
And I totally disagree about Russia, they do have some advanced fighters and SAM systems like S300 and S400. I don’t think any AF in the world will think that fighting against those systems is all easy.Anyway, to the point, I think there is a thin line that goes on between punching the enemy now even though it’s a high risk due to crowded SAMs and AAA, and waiting a few days until full air superiority and most AA systems are gone/disabled. Thin line, and the Falcon campaign is acting like a “You need to execute the mission now” kind of thing. So it’s a valid argument to maybe suggest to “slow down” the war until the Blue side has almost 100% air superiority, but I don’t believe that’s how the campaign was designed to fly. There are missions to execute and the enemy is dangerous and so we need to strike now.
At least that’s how I feel about it. Realistic or not, that’s another question. Don’t forget Falcon was born at 1998, times were different, not all weapons we have today we had back then, technology wasn’t the same and many things were different.