LGB Loft doesn't explode
-
@jc1:
If they hit the target as the “L” clues indicated, they did not explode on target. My flyover the naval base didn’t reveal any smoke. It may be that 10 seconds is not enough lase time for a loft.
This is not answering the qustion. How do you know they flew toward the designated target …. ?
Any ACMI recording? … what the debriefing said?
-
If they hit the target as the “L” clues indicated, they did not explode on target.
This is not answering the qustion. How do you know they flew toward the designated target …. ?
Any ACMI recording? … what the debriefing said?
Are you sure they don’t explode or they don’t hit the target? …
While possible, loft is not the best way to ensure a good guiding: Bomb stay nose high for long time and can’t see the laser spot … when nose down, it is not guaranteed that the spot will be within seeker’s FOV.
There was no briefing because it’s a training mission (#11). I got a ACMI but don’t know how to attach it. I believe you now: that the bomb is nose high too long, as I saw in my ACMI. My TGP-MFD showed the bomb’s laser (blinking “L”) tracking my TGP laser (“L” preceding Range to Target) all the way during last 10 seconds countdown to target but the bomb is nowhere near the target. The bomb dropped into the sea. Is that because my loft, following the Training Lesson instructions, puts the bomb in a position where it doesn’t have enough energy to get to the lasered target? Seems like laser guided lofting of bombs is not worth the effort for precision targeting.
-
@jc1:
If they hit the target as the “L” clues indicated, they did not explode on target.
There was no briefing because it’s a training mission (#11). I got a ACMI but don’t know how to attach it. I believe you now: that the bomb is nose high too long, as I saw in my ACMI. My TGP-MFD showed the bomb’s laser (blinking “L”) tracking my TGP laser (“L” preceding Range to Target) all the way during last 10 seconds countdown to target but the bomb is nowhere near the target. The bomb dropped into the sea. Is that because my loft, following the Training Lesson instructions, puts the bomb in a position where it doesn’t have enough energy to get to the lasered target? Seems like laser guided lofting of bombs is not worth the effort for precision targeting.
20 degrees loft.
-
What was your altitude during lasing?
-
@jc1:
If they hit the target as the “L” clues indicated, they did not explode on target. .
Your assumption that if the L is flashing automatically indicates a hit is wrong, it just indicates that the laser is firing. If you threw the bomb the other way, laser flashing or not will not make the bomb make crazy anti-physics flight path corrections
@jc1:
The bomb dropped into the sea. Is that because my loft, following the Training Lesson instructions, puts the bomb in a position where it doesn’t have enough energy to get to the lasered target? Seems like laser guided lofting of bombs is not worth the effort for precision targeting.
Here’s what the manual says, in bold the stuff you probably missed reading it
The Time to Go in the TGP display counts down time to the next event. In this case the first TTG is the loft release cue. Once past the loft release cue the TTG will count down to the level release cue and after that it will count down to the time of impact.
The loft release cue in BMS is set to a 45° loft by default. When following such a release pattern the aircraft usually ends up high and slow, which is not a condition you would want to enter in a high threat environment.
We could decrease the release angle in the SMS CNTL page to 30°, but in this scenario we will just wait until we are 5 Nm from the target to pull up. That will maximise our Pk (probability of kill) and simplify bomb release.
To ensure bomb release using the default 45° loft cue all parameters have to be spot on, because it is the maximum distance possible from the target, which makes the loft very susceptible to any fluctuations in speed, G and angle. It is not uncommon to miss release parameters when following the default 45° loft cue.
After the first release cue, wait until the PUAC stops flashing and don’t pull up until the distance to target is 5 Nm. This is the action point.
At the action point pull 4G in 2 seconds to 40-45° and give bomb release consent by depressing the pickle button. Stay on the azimuth steering line and the bomb will separate from the aircraft as you are climbing. Start your gentle egress turn 90° left and start a gentle descent back to low altitude. You have plenty of time to stabilise your aircraft in a safe attitude and away from the threats while the bomb is flying ballistically to its target. Don’t get fixated on the TGP because you are afraid of missing the target. If you do while your aircraft continues its climb dead ahead towards the target you will most likely end up in the air defence engagement zone and get shot down.This method works and is well proven.
I Don’t know how you loft your bombs, but clearly there is a problem somewhere in your procedure as your bomb Don’t hit, and mine do in the same training mission following exactly what the training manual says -
What was your altitude during lasing?
it’s the loft of the second pass on the training manual Deejay, hence low level the training manual settings is 500feet 500/550kts
-
Overspeed or over-g weapon breaking?
-
…check for full weapon program - Qty/Multiple/Arm time/Fusing? Then all the rest of the settings you’ve set below.
-
@Red:
Your assumption that if the L is flashing automatically indicates a hit is wrong, it just indicates that the laser is firing. If you threw the bomb the other way, laser flashing or not will not make the bomb make crazy anti-physics flight path corrections
Here’s what the manual says, in bold the stuff you probably missed reading it
This method works and is well proven.
I Don’t know how you loft your bombs, but clearly there is a problem somewhere in your procedure as your bomb Don’t hit, and mine do in the same training mission following exactly what the training manual saysI’ll show you how I loft the bomb. I posted a 29 second avi (2.8 GB) file, “Falcon BMS LGB Loft.avi” that can be viewed with Windows Media Player at my DROPBOX account, https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l1ozhd0kdb7xirx/AABCrYZZfL9JjDxlWHQW7kwna?dl=0
I could only provide 29 seconds because I didn’t pay the $37 for the full FRAPS program. If you want to download my video, at DROPBOX check the box on the left side of the file and then click the … on the right side of DROPBOX. The video shows my approach, loft, release, and tracking. The video doesn’t show the target exploding because I ran out of FRAPS time, but I tracked until the countdown reached zero and didn’t see the target crane explode. Do you see anything that I did wrong? -
Just a look and i saw that your release is out of weapon envelope
-
I’m a bit surprised the manual doesn’t mention it, but I always go gate or almost while climbing for a loft, to maximize my range and stabilize my last seconds roll input.
EDIT: as mentioned by Red Dog, I wouldn’t use that pattern to loft a LGB on a dangerous environment if I have to: 20°, hard turn to show my belly, and maintain idle/rudder to target while ~30° roll to keep lasing until impact (on target, not of my plane on the ground)
-
I’m a bit surprised the manual doesn’t mention it, but I always go gate or almost while climbing for a loft, to maximize my range and stabilize my last seconds roll input.
it’s a matter of pilot logic IMHO, If you need to start explaining everything like pushing the stick right to turn right and then pull to turn tighter, the manuals will be unreadable.
Obvioulsy, when you climb you need to sustain power. That’s basic piloting one oh one. It’s way beyond the manual purpose to explain and repeat this all the time.
IMHO. I understand it’s needed for some guys, but I elected not to cover basic piloting skills in the manuals. It’s a choice I made and I assumeJc1, can you try faster, and sustain your climb with AB to give more Energy to your weapon?
Also maybe make an acmi, that way we can see where the bomb fall and then we can rule on the Energy issue -
@Red:
it’s a matter of pilot logic IMHO, If you need to start explaining everything like pushing the stick right to turn right and then pull to turn tighter, the manuals will be unreadable.
Obvioulsy, when you climb you need to sustain power. That’s basic piloting one oh one. It’s way beyond the manual purpose to explain and repeat this all the time.
IMHO. I understand it’s needed for some guys, but I elected not to cover basic piloting skills in the manuals. It’s a choice I made and I assumeJc1, can you try faster, and sustain your climb with AB to give more Energy to your weapon?
Also maybe make an acmi, that way we can see where the bomb fall and then we can rule on the Energy issueI concur Red Dog, I saw that as the missing point to make the loft work, but indeed it appears logical to me, and anyway I would find hairy not to maintain my speed when I have to loft, I consider I might need all I can use under Mach 1 after separation.
It’s interesting though, that almost all the people I have to go deeper about in a working/safe loft procedure, don’t maintain their speed until I point it out. At this stage of learning the weapons, I think their first thought is “I didn’t understand the avionics” or “I forgot to enable something” (or “the sim is bugged”, obviously).
Anyway, not questioning the way you wrote that chapter, you know the respect I have for all your work about the manuals.
-
@Red:
it’s a matter of pilot logic IMHO, If you need to start explaining everything like pushing the stick right to turn right and then pull to turn tighter, the manuals will be unreadable.
Obvioulsy, when you climb you need to sustain power. That’s basic piloting one oh one. I’m going to my room and cry now. :mrgreen:It’s way beyond the manual purpose to explain and repeat this all the time.
IMHO. I understand it’s needed for some guys, but I elected not to cover basic piloting skills in the manuals. It’s a choice I made and I assumeJc1, can you try faster, and sustain your climb with AB to give more Energy to your weapon? Yes, I did.
Also maybe make an acmi, that way we can see where the bomb fall and then we can rule on the Energy issue I did and its at my DROPBOX
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l1ozhd0kdb7xirx/AABCrYZZfL9JjDxlWHQW7kwna?dl=0I concur Red Dog, I saw that as the missing point to make the loft work, but indeed it appears logical to me, and anyway I would find hairy not to maintain my speed when I have to loft, I consider I might need all I can use under Mach 1 after separation.
It’s interesting though, that almost all the people I have to go deeper about in a working/safe loft procedure, don’t maintain their speed until I point it out. Add me to the group. At this stage of learning the weapons, I think their first thought is “I didn’t understand the avionics” or “I forgot to enable something” (or “the sim is bugged”, obviously).
Anyway, not questioning the way you wrote that chapter, you know the respect I have for all your work about the manuals.
Immeasurable thanks to Red Dog and LorikEolMin
-
Just a look and i saw that your release is out of weapon envelope
Is this for bombs? If so, where can I find out more about it?
-
@jc1:
Is this for bombs? If so, where can I find out more about it?
what do you want to know about? it’s quite simple when the triangle is within the envelope the weapon would be effective, the envelopes is for all kinds of AG-AA stores.
-
@jc1:
Is this for bombs? If so, where can I find out more about it?
Unfortunately in BMS it’s skewed from where it should be. Top of the bracket should be max range for a bomb toss. In BMS top of bracket is level release. Bottom is supposed to be level release. BMS is much closer I think corresponding to max dive (60 degree) or simply grows downward instead of upward like it should. It only shows up for CCRP and loftable weapons so no high drag or CCIP or DTOS. When you’re in bracket you should be able to pull for loft and be assured of some kind of a solution.
The scale is 10nm between the upper tick and lower one as 0nm. Caret with number shows predicted angle for solution if maneuver begins (i.e. counts down from ~45 to 0 as caret moves through bracket). Number below bottom tick is release altitude for that loft. I think the top of bracket scales with the REL ANG setting but not sure.
It’s not “weapon be effective” but an indication of the release solution space. I guess weapon effectiveness is correlated strongly with release.
-
Just a look and i saw that your release is out of weapon envelope
@jc1:
Is this for bombs? If so, where can I find out more about it?
Unfortunately in BMS it’s skewed from where it should be. Top of the bracket should be max range for a bomb toss. In BMS top of bracket is level release. Bottom is supposed to be level release. BMS is much closer I think corresponding to max dive (60 degree) or simply grows downward instead of upward like it should. It only shows up for CCRP and loftable weapons so no high drag or CCIP or DTOS. When you’re in bracket you should be able to pull for loft and be assured of some kind of a solution.
The scale is 10nm between the upper tick and lower one as 0nm.
Caret with number
shows predicted angle for solution if maneuver begins (i.e. counts down from ~45 to 0 as caret moves through bracket).
Number below bottom tick
is release altitude for that loft. I think the top of bracket scales with the REL ANG setting but not sure.
It’s not “weapon be effective” but an indication of the release solution space. I guess weapon effectiveness is correlated strongly with release.
In my screenshot from Training Lesson #11, I don’t have a number next to caret or a number below bottom tick. How do you get those numbers?
-
Sorry, “real plane should” not BMS.
-
@Red:
it’s a matter of pilot logic IMHO, If you need to start explaining everything like pushing the stick right to turn right and then pull to turn tighter, the manuals will be unreadable.
Obvioulsy, when you climb you need to sustain power. That’s basic piloting one oh one. It’s way beyond the manual purpose to explain and repeat this all the time.
IMHO. I understand it’s needed for some guys, but I elected not to cover basic piloting skills in the manuals. It’s a choice I made and I assumeJc1, can you try faster, and sustain your climb with AB to give more Energy to your weapon?
Also maybe make an acmi, that way we can see where the bomb fall and then we can rule on the Energy issueI concur Red Dog, I saw that as the missing point to make the loft work, but indeed it appears logical to me, and anyway I would find hairy not to maintain my speed when I have to loft, I consider I might need all I can use under Mach 1 after separation.
It’s interesting though, that almost all the people I have to go deeper about in a working/safe loft procedure, don’t maintain their speed until I point it out. At this stage of learning the weapons, I think their first thought is “I didn’t understand the avionics” or “I forgot to enable something” (or “the sim is bugged”, obviously).
Anyway, not questioning the way you wrote that chapter, you know the respect I have for all your work about the manuals.
@jc1:
Immeasurable thanks to Red Dog and LorikEolMin
One last request on this topic: Could you put something in Training Lesson #10 GP Bombs and #11 Laser Bombs about how the bombs are affected by the MinMax Range (Weapon Envelope), and its caret? The first time it’s mentioned in your Training Manual is in Training #12 AG-88 HARMS. Some in this thread, like Morgan, Rypley and Frederf have shown how it could have been helpful to me, and in the future to others, in lessons #10 and #11.