True stick orientation?
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Just double-checking regarding the real F-16 stick…. the stick is rotated (12 or 15 degrees?) “outward” or clockwise when viewed from above, but it is also tilted forwards (15 degrees?), correct? In the real pit, does this mean that the stick is tilted forwards with respect to the horizontal? Or does the forward tilt “correct” or zero out the angle resulting from mounting it on an angled side console and the stick is therefore upright/vertical?
Thanks!
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AFAIK the stick is “slightly” (dixit HAF -1) rotated clockwise, but I have no idea how much degrees.
When sitting in both real & sim of BAF MLU however I tried to look at it and couldn’t really see nor feel a rotation. Don’t know if it’s just my bad vision and feel or maybe older blocks didn’t have the rotation newer versions do?According to a source at f-16.net (a structural flight test engineer for General Dynamics on the YF-16 and F-16 programs from 1973 until 1985I) the force sensor under the stick is mounted twisted 12 degrees outboard regarding the stick grip on top, which is aligned with the long. axes of the aircraft, instead of the stick itself.
So the rotation is more software then actual hardware rotation it seems. Don’t know if that’s the case for newer blocks too though.As for the tilting, IIRC it’s 13°.
The front part of the left console is about 6° lifted upwards, so it doesn’t completely level out that elevation. But remember the ejection seat is also about 30° inclined so by having the stick tilted forward 13° it more or less sits straight into the hand for the pilot. -
Thanks for the reply, Focal.
If I understand you correctly, then the stick itself isn’t rotated (top view) but only the sensor underneath is? If the sensor is rotated outward and is aligned with the aircraft axis, does this mean that the stick is actually facing towards the center and not straight ahead? In other words, the stick is rotated COUNTER clockwise?
As for the tilt, I do know that the console is angling upwards but I’m not sure if the box/platform (what is it called??) that the stick actually connects to is levelled out horizontally or if it runs parallel to the angle of the side console.
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i actually built a chair recently and experienced this on my own, I could be wrong but in my first draft, when I would roll, because it was dead center and plain, it would also pitch slightly, just because of hand angle. SO I put a slight clockwise kink in the base, so that even though it’s offset to my right, my grip is somewhat more centered, so when I make corrections it’s LESS likely to get wrong inputs because of my body position and natural movement range of the hand.
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Grabbed from somewhere over on Viperpits…
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This is the biggest myth in Falcon world. And has been debated to death.
The picture shown is where the screws are mounted.The stick itself is not rotated at all its straight inline with the jet and the armrests
I checked this multiple times while building my own cockpit.Gr Falcas
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… which is relatively easy to see here:
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as the Stevie pick shows one would expect to be the opposite for a natural hand position. Meaning inwards and not outwards.
at DJ’s picture it looks like it’s shifted inwards a bit. And it’s clear by the pinky, the top of the stick might trick you by the camera angle. Obvious that it faces to the center of the front console.
I hope not many home pit guys will have to reorient their sticks… :lol:Edit: unless the Stevie pic with the red axis represents the vertical axis of the pit and black axis the the vertical axis of the stick, so it actually is shifted 12degrees inwards after all.
Edit2: Looking at other pics from real at same angle doesn’t look like the pinky points to the center… so maybe this 12degrees is adjustable to the pilots likes?
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Stevies pic shows the software offset, not the real stick offset.
The stick is straight, software uses 12° offset for roll/pitch input to FLCS.
The above is for the top view rotation. The vertical rotation is indeed 13° physically measure between stick and base. -
Okay, I’m confused now…. so is the stick rotated or not?
If the stick is straight and the sensor/software gives a 12-degree offset, then the axis of pitch is NOT aligned with the axis of the aircraft.
If the stick is rotated counter-clockwise and the sensor/software gives a 12-degree offset, then the stick needs to be rotated 12-degrees so that the sensor/software offset results in the axis of pitch aligns with the axis of the aircraft. -
This is sort of the stuff of legend…ok, I’m going from memory here. I think the picture I posted depicts the internal axis of the SSC itself, and that the grip itself is not rotated to this extent if at all. And that as mentioned there is also a software component that does some tricks to make all of the ergonomics work. I also think some of the cockpit pictures posted are taken with wide angle lenses and don’t really show true views…so examine carefully.
When I first joined VP years ago there was a project thread on replicating a real SSC part for part…complete with drawings to do so - if you had the skills of a watchmaker you could build one from the package, and I think at least one machinist on the project did so. I grabbed a bunch of that info, but it has since become lost in server migrations…the drawing I posted was part of that research. I hope the mods have retained the info somewhere, because I can’t find it all in one thread/location anymore. Anyway, here’s another little one to further confuse you…
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Speaking from a bit of experience here.
way long ago, the belief was that the stick was rotated outboard 12*
When I mounted my FCC3 into the base, I rotated it 12* outboard.Later it was found that it was the sensor that was rotated and not the stick.
I’ve never changed it after all these years.I never had any trouble controlling X or Y axis .
since I do not have arm or wrist rests, when my hand is on the stick my elbow is near my hips which means my forearm extends from my body at an angle.
Which is very comfortable.Now if I had an arm rest that was aligning my arm more parallel with the sill, it would be awkward because my wrist would have a sharp angle.
I know that some of us want to be realistic as possibly but, consider your own comfort too and weather you will have arm / wrist rests in your set up.
my $0.02
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But 12deg outboards for the stick is not comfortable for the wrist.
Hehe I already have the 6deg vertical in mine.
I use 2 wedges at the back of the stick base. The whole thing is strapped with Velcro and it’s rock solid and more comfortable.
About the 12 deg internal ain’t there some tube extenders that mimic the 6deg in vertical? So tell those guys making those to apply 12deg in horizontal first then the 6deg vertical.
Attach the tube to the stick and turn the base 12deg inboard.
Tough for the already made home pit builders.Στάλθηκε από το MI 5 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk
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Been there man
That thread got pretty interesting and full of good info (and some missinfo), to cut it short I tell you that the conclusion I reached is what they have already told you here: The stick is not rotated, the internal sensors are, 12 degrees to the right
So in my own cockpit I mounted the stick straight forward and easily rotated the axes 12 degrees with TARGET:
To be honest, I did it just to have it “more real” and I can see the ergonomics behind it, but you can fly fine without the rotation and it took me time to get use to it to the point that was difficult to make a perfect level turn.
Cheers
Tulkas
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So in my own cockpit I mounted the stick straight forward and easily rotated the axes 12 degrees with TARGET:
hmmm that is the best solution for the 12deg i believe…
I believe this is doable and with CCP or Foxy???
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…and I think Arend’s FCC3 WH (and maybe the base one as well?) can also allow for such in software?
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Thank you for the info guys! I think this answers it for the rotation –- stick is facing straight but input/sensors are rotated 12 degrees…
Now for the tilt… Stevie’s drawing perfectly explains what I am trying to ask: If the console is tilted 6 degrees and the SSC box is just a normal “box,” then it is also tilted 6 degrees, and if the connector gives a 15 degree forward tilt, in reality it is only tilting the stick 9 degrees, correct?
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…sounds like you go the math right to me.
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Thanks Stevie!
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hmmm that is the best solution for the 12deg i believe…
I believe this is doable and with CCP or Foxy???
Wondering the same with Foxy, I haven’t been using foxy for a long long time. I don’t remember seeing CCP have this option. With TARGET it is definitly doable.