Stop talking about flying online and get your butt airborne!
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You sir won the Darwin award today. lmao. Sir, your answer denotes an absolute ignorance of the ‘‘Real World’’ aviation :rofl:
So you are saying that a professionally formed pilot, with access to real world flying material (which is at least private if you are a flying with civies or confidential at most or secret if you are flying with the Air Forces) knows less than a ‘‘virtual video game player’’ (or simmer) who is having access to public limited documentation on internet ? :rofl:
So all the theory tests, lessons given by CFIs, Fliight tests given by accreditated examiners, Type Ratings Courses, and real flying hours are bullshit… So i just need to look for disclosed and old documentation on the internet (with unverified sources and unhomologated by the local aviation authority) and pretend i’m flying a real aircraft besides my screen to obtain a level of knowledge superior of a real pilot ? Wow. You should definitely make a one man show in Flying schools, Testing and evaluation squadrons in Airforces ! I’m sure you’ll had the standing ovation you deserve :rofl::rofl::rofl:
You are an awesome being Sir, thanks for the good laugh i had this morning. You are absolutely fantastic. Keep dreaming, and dreaming big ! … n’importe quoi…Btw if you are moderator, feel free to censor/delete my message if i offended you with a good dose of reality, it’s ok if you are butthurt…
Wtf? Nope that’s not what he said at all. Where did he say that some ‘VPs’ know more than real world pilots. He said non pilots. So obviously aeronautical engineers are gong to know more about the physics of flight than a pilot. GE engineers and designers are going to know FAR more about the viper than the pilots themselves.
You seem to have taken offence to one sentence and transformed what red dog has said…
What do I know, I’m drunk in a Dutch bar…
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You sir won the Darwin award today. lmao. Sir, your answer denotes an absolute ignorance of the ‘‘Real World’’ aviation :rofl:
So you are saying that a professionally formed pilot, with access to real world flying material (which is at least private if you are a flying with civies or confidential at most or secret if you are flying with the Air Forces) knows less than a ‘‘virtual video game player’’ (or simmer) who is having access to public limited documentation on internet ? :rofl:
So all the theory tests, lessons given by CFIs, Fliight tests given by accreditated examiners, Type Ratings Courses, and real flying hours are bullshit… So i just need to look for disclosed and old documentation on the internet (with unverified sources and unhomologated by the local aviation authority) and pretend i’m flying a real aircraft besides my screen to obtain a level of knowledge superior of a real pilot ? Wow. You should definitely make a one man show in Flying schools, Testing and evaluation squadrons in Airforces ! I’m sure you’ll had the standing ovation you deserve :rofl::rofl::rofl:
You are an awesome being Sir, thanks for the good laugh i had this morning. You are absolutely fantastic. Keep dreaming, and dreaming big ! … n’importe quoi…Btw if you are moderator, feel free to censor/delete my message if i offended you with a good dose of reality, it’s ok if you are butthurt…
Those “some guys” could very well be aerospace engineers who “know more about planes than some pilots”.
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He actually is a real life pilot.
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Theory can never beat Practical application… Sorry, but engineers know how to engineer an aircraft, pilots knows how to fly an aicraft. that’s it. And Simmers can not beat a real world pilot, in any sort of theoritical or pratical knowledge, in any way of sort in aviation. It’s like making a statement telling that Call of Duty keyboard warriors can enlist at any time in the Navy Seals and can beat them at the range… come on…:rofl:
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You seem to believe that people in responsible positions know everything.
Life will knock that assumption out of you.
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Theory can never beat Practical application… Sorry, but engineers know how to engineer an aircraft, pilots knows how to fly an aicraft. that’s it. And Simmers can not beat a real world pilot, in any sort of theoritical or pratical knowledge, in any way of sort in aviation. It’s like making a statement telling that Call of Duty keyboard warriors can enlist at any time in the Navy Seals and can beat them at the range… come on…:rofl:
None of that is what Reddog actually said.
Anything can be falsified if you take it out of context and/or misquote it.
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@Johhnypropeller,
World isn’t black or white, there are some grey areas. Your statement can be proven wrong or right depending on who you pick.
Let’s leave the engineer issue aside, this a debate that goes on forever, where each side claims to know more than the other, have to deal with that at work every day, and it is nonsense. Both are complementary, period.
Now, in regards to your claim that a simmer will never exceed a real life pilot knowledge …… like i said you can be proven wrong.
The things that, no real life pilot will ever admit that he got outsmarted by someone not being a pilot on a theoretical knowledge. Normally, a simmer can very well have the same theoretical knowledge as a pilot holding a PPL, but beyond that … i agree with you,you can forget it.
CPL, ME-IFR and ATPL are very demanding licences to get, but i know some simmers that have some of the knowledge, but where the line is drawn, is when it comes to actually being able to talk about it. Reading is one thing, doing it for real is another, and this is where the simmer needs to know his limits. Do not talk about something you never actually did …because this is the best way to be considered as someone talking out of his a$$.
You can get access to IFR handbooks, get the knowledge, do the practical exams to test your knowledge, hop in your flight simulator, and shoot an ILS approach, and actually nail a CAT I approach, do a kiss landing and call yourself as knowledgeable as a Pilot … right …
The thing is, how you do it. Do you actually know if you can shoot the approach regarding the weather ? did you do a briefing ? have you actually experienced a real glide slope or localizer ? they aren’t as stable as in your simulator … sometimes it isn’t that steady. Have you ever shot an approach with the glide slope suddenly going crazy and having the airplane follow the glide slope up because it is coupled on it with the auto-pilot ? And did you experience the passengers screaming ? In IMC ? …and of course that day the thunderstorm is over your holding point.
Flying a simulator with realistic weather and having the turbulences rock your airplane is one thing, but does any simmer know how it is to fly around a freaking squall line at night, the airplane is tossed around so much that you have a hard time reading your instrument because your own head is shacking like hell ? the auto-pilot disengages because we hit severe turbulences … fly the plane in such conditions, and when you land, you are exhausted !! Especially when this is your fourth leg of the day !In those conditions, with your mental status, the fatigue, you sill need to be able to perform in cool and calm manner, like the guy behind his computer, who can at any time call it a day.
Difference here is that for a simmer, this is fun, for me it is no fun flying in bad weather at night over Nigeria … or hitting a bird on rotation. So the line has to be drawn somewhere, in which regards is a simmer as knowledgeable as a real life pilot ? … theory maybe, but, theory only backed up by no real life experience is well …only theory, useful theory, but nothing you can relate to and say you did it. This is to me the biggest difference.
But, one should show respect, some simmer folks are very dedicated, know a lot, and are very driven by their passion. One thing simmers forget, when you do it for real, sometimes your passion becomes a job, on some days, because you are tired, or the guy on the ground screwed your schedule or some bozo decides that today you will depart late, passengers giving you birds names etc etc etc … sometimes you wish it was like in a simulator.
We are all simmers on this forum, did you guys ever got scared for your own life while flying in the sim ? …
If you ever get scared for your life in a real plane or experience some emergencies, you will study the manuals in a different way, you will study weather in a different way, because you actually have seen it. But still, some simmers will be able to have more knowledge than you …but on certain topics only.
It ain’t funny every day up there.
NB: The simmers that actually do know a lot …usually very well know that they can not compare to the real deal, because they have respect, respect for the profession, not the man in uniform.
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@Red:
…. I know some guys who aren’t pilot but who know better about airplane than some pilots ….
I don’t take that to mean flying procedure necessarily. But about systems and mechanical functionalities.
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Theory can never beat Practical application… Sorry, but engineers know how to engineer an aircraft, pilots knows how to fly an aicraft. that’s it. And Simmers can not beat a real world pilot, in any sort of theoritical or pratical knowledge, in any way of sort in aviation. It’s like making a statement telling that Call of Duty keyboard warriors can enlist at any time in the Navy Seals and can beat them at the range… come on…:rofl:
I don’t agree with everything you’re saying in it’s entirety, I know the experience that Red Dog is speaking from and he is not saying what you are saying. If you know something, you know something and on the flip side of the coin, you don’t know what you don’t know. While obviously a real world pilot is in general going to be completely rounded in knowledge particularly when you get to CPL and ATP levels, that doesn’t make them better than anyone or all time superior in theory or practical knowledge. They are still human and hopefully a humble pilot (aviation and egos don’t mix), we never stop being student pilots, even after you receive your license. Remember the old saying your pilot’s license is a license to learn? Same thing here my friend, never stop learning.
There are definitely examples where technically a sim pilot may know more than the real pilot and vice versa, I don’t think you can make it such a concrete distinction. Nobody is a master of everything, but you can get pretty close to it. There will always be something you don’t know, there will always be someone better than you, and to say that just because someone is a sim pilot vs a real pilot doesn’t mean that one is better than the other, they are both pursuing the same thing: more knowledge, more skill, and hopefully passion in what they do.
Another thing I’d like to mention, when you’re bringing these modern home flight sims into the equation, they’re starting to get to a level of fidelity and reality that you actually can train to the same levels that our real world counterparts are reaching. Falcon BMS 4.33, P3D, and some of the latest releases of DCS are proving this. In our wing we study the books pretty extensively and for the most part we have found that the procedures in the book work surprisingly the same in the simulator. That is thanks in large part to the hard work and fidelity of the Falcon BMS team who no doubt either through their own experiences as pilots (both sim and real life), through consultation of experts as well as documentation over the years, have actually pushed this simulator to levels nearing where it could be argued to be at or near a “professional training simulator.” You more or less have an extreme high accuracy flight model, a solid weather engine, even with all the gripes and moans a rock solid terrain and autogen system, good modeling of weapons, good modeling of avionics (not perfect or completely accurate to all Blocks, but still!) that allows you to become very proficient, simulate as much or as little as you want.
You brought up briefings as well, you can and we do absolutely brief/plan these flights to some pretty detailed levels, even details as small as aircraft performance (takeoff/landing speeds, climb speeds, enroute speeds), instrument procedures, air traffic control, airspace restrictions, ROE, and even more. It is absolutely endless what you can get out of this simulator, it ultimately what you get out of this simulator is up to one person: the end user. Some of us (in fact a lot of us) are real pilots on top of being sim pilots so we bring even more experience into the simulator, which pushes realism to even higher levels.
Finally food for thought: your expert pilot (the one that no sim pilot could challenge on knowledge or practical application) who is type rated will suddenly no longer be an expert anymore if he switches aircraft types and has to go through ground school all over again for that particular type rating. He never lost his skill or knowledge as it relates to airmanship, but he is definitely not an expert on the new type rating. The same can be said here, you can give me a 20,000 hour plus airline captain and I can absolutely promise you that he will have a hard time (at least initially) keeping up with a “CMR” pilot and flying the F-16 the way it is supposed to be flown. This is just like a type rating and if you want to master it, you better study it, don’t assume that a “real pilot” will be able to outshine a “sim pilot” in this particular community, that’s a recipe for hurt feelings of inadequacy I promise.
One penny + One penny.
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I don’t take that to mean flying procedure necessarily. But about systems and mechanical functionalities.
I think they can become more or less equal in some respects, but never you can never certify that a sim pilot is more knowledgeable than a real pilot that’s for certain. Like I said, once you know something you know it and flying as complex as it is, end of the day if you do x procedure you’ll receive y as a result, that’s all there is to it. So there’s no grand superiority other than he’s done it in a real aircraft, you’ve done it in a simulator aircraft, but end of the day you’re doing the same thing.
The biggest razor in all of this: professional pilots train on flight simulators. If there were no viable benefits to simulating flight (which obviously there are) then pilot’s wouldn’t do it. It’s because they can build the same exact skills in the simulator that they can in real airplane at a fraction of the costs. That’s the whole point, know what I’m saying?
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Everyone is welcome to fly in pickups! Events you should have some baseline of competency - pretty low standards compared to other VFS though, and we don’t have any “Tests.”
However I tried to not to make this video a recruitment video for my squadron - it’s more of a general call to the guys who won’t fly with others unless they are perfect from the get-go. However, it’s not possible! It’s not even possible to be perfect years afterwards, and thousands of flight hours later!
Once new folks realize no one is expecting them to be gods - and that they will surely suck no matter how much prep they make, everyone can relax and enjoy themselves!
I think you succeeded with respect to not turning your video into a recruitment vid for UOAF. I think your video is spot on in terms of taking the leap. And you are spot on about learning. Doesn’t matter whether its a game or a sim or a sport or a job or whatever, you want to associate yourself with folks that are really good at what they do and you will get better yourself. So yeah, completely on board with your vid. I think you were clear that if one virtual squadron wasn’t right for you, another should be. Which is so true.
What I am saying is that your video is inviting but UOAF (if you review the SOPs and ideals) may be being misinterpreted not only by potential recruits, but just plain old guest flyers. I personally interpreted all that I read, plus the lack of any formalized familiarization process as that UOAF expected individual pilots to put in a little competency elbow grease before bugging members. Wrong or right, that was my overall impression. Which I am completely okay with, even though I wanted to go multiplayer familiarization flying the day I setup a guest account over there. To be fair some posted about not worrying about my skills, but after reading a bunch of the SOPs I just wanted to be sure I wasn’t going to be pissing off any UOAF veterans by being a noob knucklehead. And so, even though your vid isn’t about UOAF in particular, I just wanted to let you know that some of your frustration with new guys not getting up in the air the day they say hi over at UOAF may be partially – and only partially – self-inflicted. I hope that make sense and hope to be flying with you all soon.
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A pilot does not train to pilot on a simulator, he or she practices switchology, reflexology, repeat procedure and trains to manage failures. I pretty much used professional simulators in the air force, but honestly, I never learned how to pilot in a simulator… I learned how to use my weapon system, how to read my instruments and manage failures or threats. Except the fact that a fly by wire fighter aircraft handling is a bit different compared to legacy airplanes, I have not felt so much difference between a glider and a 4th generation fighter aircraft … The 95% remaining of the flight is tacticals, situation awareness, anticipation and mathematics. Some people pretend that piloting is something you do with your feeling, but from my humble experience, I do not agree. Your so called feelings are in fact just a remanence of your subconscious calculation and experience. To me, piloting is nothing more that computing : what I want to do, what I can do, what I decide to do. Flying is nothing more than this.
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Wouldn’t Descartes say that it’s the satisfaction of a mind at the expense of a body?
I pilot does not train to pilot on a simulator, he or she practices switchology, reflexology, repeat procedure and trains to manage failures. I pretty much used professional simulators in the air force, but honestly, I never learned how to pilot in a simulator… I learned how to use my weapon system, how to read my instruments and manage failures or threats. Except the fact that a fly by wire fighter aircraft handling is a bit different compared to legacy airplanes, I have not felt so much difference between a glider and a 4th generation fighter aircraft … The 95% remaining of the flight is tacticals, situation awareness, anticipation and mathematics. Some people pretend that piloting is something you do with your feeling, but from my humble experience, I do not agree. Your so called feelings are in fact just a remanence of your subconscious calculation and experience. To me, piloting is nothing more that computing : what I want to do, what I can do, what I decide to do. Flying is nothing more than this.
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Wouldn’t Descartes say that it’s the satisfaction of a mind at the expense of a body?
I am really bad at philosophy… Could you explain?
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I’m not very good either. Descartes has the reputation of dividing the human being into a mind and a body, which is still (and certainly was before him) a very common conception - not very supported by today’s science obviously. Piloting, particularly jets, but anything really in the beginning (motion sickness) can be a challenge for a body, but satisfies the associated mind with rich activities of various kinds.
It was just my way to add my two pence, I don’t want to hijack the thread with that.
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I’m not very good either. Descartes has the reputation of dividing the human being into a mind and a body, which is still (and certainly was before him) a very common conception - not very supported by today’s science obviously. Piloting, particularly jets, but anything really in the beginning (motion sickness) can be a challenge for a body, but satisfies the associated mind with rich activities of various kinds.
It was just my way to add my two pence, I don’t want to hijack the thread with that.
Personally, I far prefer THIS line of discussion…
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BTW yesterday I did fly with UOAF and had a great time and I do have to say multiplayer is awesome and quite different than single player.
In single player mode I am able to think about what I am doing a lot more. In multiplayer I am trying to think about what others are doing and what they want me to do while at the same time trying to keep an eye on my #1 or #3. In single player I feel like I am in god mode, in multiplayer I feel I am in duckling mode. So yeah, I would have to say my performance was lackluster, and as Krause pointed out only a fool would expect more out of a newbie to multiplayer.
Also, I have to agree that no amount of single player flying is going to make you competent at multiplayer BUT I do think there’s nothing wrong with satisfying yourself that you can navigate and employ the various weapon systems before trying multiplayer. Sure you could join a squadron with zero familiarization and knowledge, but IMO there’s nothing wrong with taking a month or two getting used to flying, navigating, and employing weapons before taking the leap to multiplayer so that you are slightly less sucky. But then TAKE THE LEAP and be sucky.
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BTW yesterday I did fly with UOAF and had a great time and I do have to say multiplayer is awesome and quite different than single player.
Yeah personally I don’t get nearly the enjoyment out of single player flying in BMS any more. Multi player is just THAT much more enjoyable. The first time you go into a strike with a TARCAP, a SEAD/DEAD, and some strikers and kill your target and manage to bring all your birds back home you will be hooked.
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Except the fact that a fly by wire fighter aircraft handling is a bit different compared to legacy airplanes, I have not felt so much difference between a glider and a 4th generation fighter aircraft …
I’d say the biggest difference by far has to be the ARI coordinating turns for you. This would be an issue for those going from a plane like the F-16 to good old stick and rudder fliers and not nearly so much for those guys moving to an F-16 just from a flight control perspective.