Are backseaters pilots?
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@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@Dee-Jay said in Are backseaters pilots?:
Dan Hampton is just a stupid moron who think he is superman.
I thought a little bit of (or a lot!!) ego is a requirement for the job.
That’s what people with big egos try to make you believe.
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@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@Stevie Yep, that’s the one.
@Radium thanks for your input. It seems like WSOs are essential in some A-G roles but then not so much on an A-A or air superiority role? Is that correct? So kind of like you have a CP/G and a Pilot in something like an Apache? The case being flying so close to the ground is so task intensive that it’s better to have “two brains” as you say rather than just one?
In an Apache, CP/G leads the crew.
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On M2000N, M2000D or Rafale B, most of the time, flight lead and/or mission commander is a WSO.
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@Atlas Hello,
In fact, it depends what we are talking about.
Classical WVR and BVR mission do not necessarily demand two persons onboard.
That being said : there is a clear constant evolution of the job of a fighter pilot.
As I said, not more than 1% of the job is about pressing buttons, not more than 3% is about stick handling, and not more than 1% about avionics. 95% remains about decisions making and to ensure that the mission is done as safely as possible.
It’s indeed something that many people don’t remember : for each flight, people may die, crew themselves or people on the ground.
To come back to air to air operations and the role of WSO, MQ-28 style UAV and similar designated as remote carriers, are the true future of the job. To control these combat platforms that may conduct both air to air or air to ground operations, a specific coordination will be needed, because fighter aircraft are becoming more and more little AWACS, by C2 concept. A sole person can’t do it by himself or herself. I don’t think we will ever move to a full UCAV world but both worlds will mix sooner or later.
For this reason, air dominance that we know right now on F-22 (sole aircraft capable of this mission), will shift from mastering the sky to mastering assets of the skies. So, a single pilot will not be able to make this kind of mission by himself and a WSO.
Truth is that, this, is the past :
This is what’s next :
To drive what you can see on the second screenshot, which is the future of fighter aircraft, we will surely need a WSO, because we are going to a fully merged battlefield.
Cheers,
Radium
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@Radium - I had the opportunity to sit in on a Ready Room discussion/debate between a few Navy and USMC aircrew on the merits and application of single vs two man cockpits - it was very informative and both arguments made some really valid points, just as you say.
I’ve been looking over aircrew shoulders for 30+ years now, and personally have become a huge fan of the two man cockpit… which isn’t how I started out. But when you see two crew doing it right you can’t help but think highly of them.
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@Radium - heh…I certainly recognize that second screenshot…
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What a great discussion to read.
thanks to all! -
This is sort of an interesting site along these lines. I found it a long time ago and had forgotten about it. It seems the DCS F-14 has a fully modeled/operable back seat, and this site is dedicated to information for “virtual WSOs”.
I have no idea how “on target” it is, but it is pretty comprehensive…though strictly F-14 oriented.
Fly Navy.
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@Dee-Jay said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@Atlas said in Are backseaters pilots?:
No offense meant to anyone, but are RIOs/WSOs pilots? Do they have any flight training?
I think it was Dan Hampton’s book where he said something like he wouldn’t listen to a backseater but he would listen to the guy in front. I might be wrong, it’s been a good few years since I read that book, but I’ve always had this in the back of my mind. One of my pals just showed me a video of Ward Carroll making statements about flying the Tomcat and tactics and such but I thought backseaters don’t have aircraft control? Unless in a trainer aircraft, of course.
Always happy to be proven wrong and educated on these matters.
Dan Hampton is just a stupid moron who think he is superman.
How nice to call someone a stupid moron (someone who isn’t even a member on this forum). Doesn’t that even go against forum rules?
I’ve read quite a few books by fighter pilots and yes he does have a bit of a superman thing going, but I didn’t think it was that much worse than books I’ve read of/about other fighter pilots. I could see the humor of it. And some points he made were quite valid in my opinion.
As for the original topic. RIO’s/WSO’s are not pilots, although as mentioned they have limited flight training. They are however equal and full flight officers and can be mission commanders, squadron commanders etc. So they are regarded equal flight members.
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@Atlas Hi. This is an interesting question. As Airtex and Lorik wrote, it depends on the situation. I wouldn’t base everything on Hampton’s view . That was from a single seat pilot, and a young arrogant one at that. From what I have heard, the Navy at least is more like Flight of the Intruder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_flight_officer -
Hampton asked for this punishment in his own book, as he did his persecutor.
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@LorikEolmin said in Are backseaters pilots?:
Hampton asked for this punishment in his own book, as he did his persecutor.
Really? What did he write justifying calling him a stupid moron? Do you have examples of what he wrote?
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@Tomcatter31 said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@LorikEolmin said in Are backseaters pilots?:
Hampton asked for this punishment in his own book, as he did his persecutor.
Really? What did he write justifying calling him a stupid moron? Do you have examples of what he wrote?
Yes, but that is not the place . Reading it again maybe, with that in mind, could suddenly light the spark.
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@LorikEolmin said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@Tomcatter31 said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@LorikEolmin said in Are backseaters pilots?:
Hampton asked for this punishment in his own book, as he did his persecutor.
Really? What did he write justifying calling him a stupid moron? Do you have examples of what he wrote?
Yes, but that is not the place . Reading it again maybe, with that in mind, could suddenly light the spark.
This is also not the place to call people a stupid moron, but maybe that’s just me…
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@Tomcatter31 - this brings up something interesting that I observed while working at PMTC. On a lot of occasions, I had an F-14 in the mix as a chase plane, and on EVERY occasion the RIO outranked the pilot…so technically, if the pilot were to ignore the RIO for any reason other than the safety of the aircraft and crew, I should think he would be acting in violation of a direct order.
This came up in the discussion/debate I mentioned previously…and that’s how I recall some of the division of responsibility breaking out - the pilot has jurisdiction for safe/effective flight conduct, but the RIO has jurisdiction for prosecution of the attack.
I’ve only ever known one RIO (and he was an F-14 RIO) that has matriculated to become a fully qual’d, winged pilot…rare, but can happen it seems.
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@drtbkj said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@Atlas Hi. This is an interesting question. As Airtex and Lorik wrote, it depends on the situation. I wouldn’t base everything on Hampton’s view . That was from a single seat pilot, and a young arrogant one at that. From what I have heard, the Navy at least is more like Flight of the Intruder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_flight_officerI wouldn’t take any of these remarks too seriously. Pilots make fun of backseaters all the time and vice versa too. Mover makes fun of WSO’s on his youtube channel too, calling them the last flare. Even F-14 pilots make fun of RIO’s. Saying that they’re useful for holding up an umbrella when it rains walking out to the jet. I’ve seen cruise videos with RIO’s making fun of pilots as well. It’s just good natured ribbing that is quite common in the fighter world.
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@Stevie said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@Tomcatter31 - this brings up something interesting that I observed while working at PMTC. On a lot of occasions, I had an F-14 in the mix as a chase plane, and on EVERY occasion the RIO outranked the pilot…so technically, if the pilot were to ignore the RIO for any reason other than the safety of the aircraft and crew, I should think he would be acting in violation of a direct order.
This came up in the discussion/debate I mentioned previously…and that’s how I recall some of the division of responsibility breaking out - the pilot has jurisdiction for safe/effective flight conduct, but the RIO has jurisdiction for prosecution of the attack.
I’ve only ever known one RIO (and he was an F-14 RIO) that has matriculated to become a fully qual’d, winged pilot…rare, but can happen it seems.
Exactly. Plenty of RIO’s were squadron commanders, like Bio Baranek for example. Tomcats often split responsibility. So experienced pilots frequently flew with inexperienced RIO’s and experienced RIO’s often are crewed with inexperienced pilots. And like I said, RIO’s have been mission commanders etc. Tomcat crews generally have a contract between each other dividing responsibility so that both know what their responsibility is, but indeed the RIO has the tactical picture, so in a way he drives the fight, at least in bvr. And indeed there were rare occasions where RIO’s later became pilots.
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@Stevie said in Are backseaters pilots?:
so technically, if the pilot were to ignore the RIO for any reason other than the safety of the aircraft and crew, I should think he would be acting in violation of a direct order.
the pilot has jurisdiction for safe/effective flight conduct, but the RIO has jurisdiction for prosecution of the attack.
Gives a whole new (literal) meaning to the phrase “backseat driver”
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@Tomcatter31 said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@drtbkj said in Are backseaters pilots?:
@Atlas Hi. This is an interesting question. As Airtex and Lorik wrote, it depends on the situation. I wouldn’t base everything on Hampton’s view . That was from a single seat pilot, and a young arrogant one at that. From what I have heard, the Navy at least is more like Flight of the Intruder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_flight_officerI wouldn’t take any of these remarks too seriously. Pilots make fun of backseaters all the time and vice versa too. Mover makes fun of WSO’s on his youtube channel too, calling them the last flare. Even F-14 pilots make fun of RIO’s. Saying that they’re useful for holding up an umbrella when it rains walking out to the jet. I’ve seen cruise videos with RIO’s making fun of pilots as well. It’s just good natured ribbing that is quite common in the fighter world.
Oh, absolutely, T3. I was just continuing with Atlas’ book/film theme. Yep, pilots are “nosegunners” is a favorite.