4.37 killed the AMRAAM
-
It seems like the only thing this thread will ever agree on is that the AMRAAM and the Phoenix are both missiles.
-
@spotdott said in 4.37 killed the AMRAAM:
It seems like the only thing this thread will ever agree on is that the AMRAAM and the Phoenix are both missiles.
What do you mean “missiles”?
-
@airtex2019 said in 4.37 killed the AMRAAM:
@Mav-jp said in 4.37 killed the AMRAAM:
You need to understand that before seeker going active the missile might fly several miles away from the actual target , and yeah it can happen that at hprf or mprf the real target just is outside FOv and that would be a miss
Just to be clear, I’m not trying to debate what’s correct or not – I have no idea. Just trying to provide simple repro case.
These targets are flying straight and level (both C-160 and Mig-19s) with no nearby distractions or other influences.
I tried to repro with STT hard lock, my missiles guide true and intercept their target.
But with RWS/SAM, and TWS, the course guidance seems to be 11 or 12 degrees off – about 5nm, at 25nm range. It seems very unexpected, for targets flying so straight and level… again, I don’t know correct vs incorrect. Just trying to provide a clean case to repro and investigate.
As I said this Is absolutely expect and it will not be consistant because the error margin is random for each missile
So you can launch a first missile in tws which will have zero error and the second one with maximum error
Keep in mind as well that there are six independant errors build in
Error on X,Y,Z position of target
Error on Vx,Vy,Vz target velocityAll of this combine makes the interpretation impossible to do for you guys (I have special debug tools to make sure what we see match with what is coded )
You need to embrace the idea that aim120 PG can be as low as 20% if fired in tws at 15nm with DL lost up to 90% in STT with full guiding
-
@Ironman53rd Yes, this was a situation where I didn’t care if I got shot down because I would just discard the mission (which I’ve done on this exact mission over 2 dozen times now because it seems to be the perfect scenario) I’m just concerned that the SU-30 I was all over was able to “giddy-up” at 14 miles and out run 2 slammers that were at Mach-3.
I always have my TGP set as you suggested and have been trying to adapt to the new skill level of the AI (and subsequest 13g ability of their aircraft…)
The A4/AN-24 has been a constant of this 4.37 campaign and it started at the beginning of the campaign against Q5/Q7/Mig 19’s Slammers just weren’t hitting home, And of course because I knew they didn’t have better missiles I was only launching at 20 miles MAX on those shots and supporting all the way in and never defensive so the theory is something is off. Obviously seems like others are noticing this trend so I might go back and restart the campaign to have those Mig-s back (they’re all dead I assume, haven’t seen one for days)
-
@LorikEolmin Well, AIM does stand for Air Intercept Missile…
-
@airtex2019 kinda very simliar to what I was seeing on some of my early campaign flights against those Mig-19/Q5 fighters. See my reply to Ironman53rd. I was just chocking it up to what we’ve been hearing that the 120 had been nerfed and needed better FCR support and not like when I flew Falcon 3.0 (I could just hit spacebar, tab, spacebar, tab) and get 6 kills LOL. Who else remembers those days???
Back to the task at hand. Those same missile misses are exponentially magnified going against a SU-27/30.
Back to the Pit I go gents…
-
@Mav-jp said in 4.37 killed the AMRAAM:
aim120 PG can be as low as 20% if fired in tws at 15nm with DL lost up to 90% in STT with full guiding
ok, STT good, RWS and TWS bad… got it.
does RWS->SAM offer any improvement? (seems like the radar antenna “pauses” over the bugged target briefly, with each scan, presumably to collect a higher fidelity response?)
-
@Mav-jp So I clearly hear what you’re saying and maybe the 120 hasn’t “changed” but the probability for a missile “self-error” is higher than before? Kinda like how now we get hung missiles/bombs?
By the way, being I worked weapons on the Falcon for my 20 year career I can tell you that hung bombs happen more often than the sim spits out, which I’m ok with but everyone hates a hung store because in a sim world, we want everything to work 100% of the time.
Most real world viper drivers maybe get 1 or 2 chances to shoot a live missile IRL during their careers. I deployed to WSEP twice and we never had a hung missile ( out of appx 18 shots) Now I haven’t the slightest clue on the actual number of possible hung missiles/bad missiles there are, unless we got into a real war, but I do know that a live AIM-120 does a “bit check” with the LX and aircraft to ensure it’s working correctly and as long as that passes, the missile was good
-
@Mav-jp do you know of any videos out there someone has done that could be a reliable learning tool for using the slammer correctly?
I know Lorik is in the thread now (howdy mate) but I am wondering if I’m the problem and shooting the wrong way?
-
@airtex2019 Yep, it’s almost like the AMRAAM leaves the rail in MADDOG mode and never tracks the target until Husky/Pitbull.
I’ve watched countless times now with Shift7 to watch what the slammer is doing and it’s mind boggling
-
@WPNS24 said in 4.37 killed the AMRAAM:
By the way, being I worked weapons on the Falcon for my 20 year career I can tell you that hung bombs happen more often than the sim spits out, which I’m ok with but everyone hates a hung store because in a sim world, we want everything to work 100% of the time.
Most real world viper drivers maybe get 1 or 2 chances to shoot a live missile IRL during their careers. I deployed to WSEP twice and we never had a hung missile ( out of appx 18 shots) Now I haven’t the slightest clue on the actual number of possible hung missiles/bad missiles there are, unless we got into a real war, but I do know that a live AIM-120 does a “bit check” with the LX and aircraft to ensure it’s working correctly and as long as that passes, the missile was good -
@Tumbler31 Thanks!!
-
@WPNS24 said in 4.37 killed the AMRAAM:
@airtex2019 Yep, it’s almost like the AMRAAM leaves the rail in MADDOG mode and never tracks the target until Husky/Pitbull.
I’ve watched countless times now with Shift7 to watch what the slammer is doing and it’s mind boggling
The aim120 does not track the target before hprf or mprf , why would you think it does ???
It does track a potential target which is extrapolated from FCR with all errors build in
As I said the amount of errors are dépendant on distance from target (the closest the smallest error ) , FCR sublode Stt>Sam>tws and target velocity
It’s amazing how people just don’t understand the predicted target can be miles away from the actual target
-
@Mav-jp said in 4.37 killed the AMRAAM:
It’s amazing how people just don’t understand the predicted target can be miles away from the actual target
is it so hard to understand how this is hard to understand? I mean, at the moment of launch, there’s a green square on my HUD showing the target… it’s not off by 5 miles. and a cross indicator on MFD showing the lead-pursuit path to intercept.
Pretty sure I can switch radar off and fly that straight-line intercept course, manually, and pass within 5nm of the cargo plane.
Is there no compass in the aim-120 guidance system? Is the inertial sensor that inaccurate, as the missile accelerates off the rail? (I think only -D model has GPS … not sure about that. but hey I suppose they must have added it for a reason, eh.)
Ok, the answer may be “yes it’s that inaccurate” but then why does STT mode perform better?
It’s all very confusing for us poor armchair pilots.
These missiles cost more than my house… so kinda expect more from my tax dollars.
-
We tried as real as it gets but apparently we went too far
-
@MaxWaldorf And bro, that’s A-OK, that’s why BMS is awesome. Devs putting in tons of hours for our enjoyment but when I expect something to behave a certain way especially since it has behaved that way for a very long time and then it starts to NOT behave that way, questions are formulated and opinions are expressed. The slammer has an internal INS system and unlike an AIM-9 it needs that 1-2 seconds after the pickle button is depressed for it to come off the rail, it is gathering the last known data about the target before it leaves the jet and then it is guided by datalink to the best possible intercept of that target. So for it to not track the target from the beginning seems suspect to me, hence why it directs a loft angle in the attack profile, it’s calculating what it wants to achieve best PK before it leaves the rail, is it not?
Oh, and the J-20 that shows as a 22 on the RWR… Just run away, I can’t burn through its ECM jamming, tried on several occasions LOL.
-
@Mav-jp I was looking through the forums and couldn’t find a whole lot but at the beginning 4.37 was logging every A-A kill accurately but lately it’ll say I downed an aircraft, hit destroyed in the debriefing but it’ll say 0(0) for kills, also doesn’t go into the logbook.
Not a biggie but just letting you know it seems random in 4.37
I read that sometimes going external view can mess up this aspect of the sim so I will test that too but it’s hard not to because we have awesome Wing skins and 4.37 looks so damn good outside now!!
-
@Mav-jp Got ya, so when it started acting a little funny in 4.36 we weren’t losing our minds. You are right, we all got used to the arcade style of AMRAAM 90% kill ratio regardless of what we did, even snipping and MADDOG had high PK. I appreciate you explaining this, I missed it earlier. We look forward to working and improving BMS and updating our tactics to ensure better kill and our survivabilities.
-
@Mav-jp - it’s not a flight model change that got my attention - it’s the “maneuvering target” change you made. I want to be rid of that.
-
@hiuuz - I think they are mixed up about what “accurate” means in regard to the AIM-7 vs the AIM-120…the “accuracy” has more to do with keeping the beam on the target because of how narrow it is, to support getting the AIM-7 there - that’s what STT was developed to do. As far as the AIM-120 goes I don’t think it particularly adds or subtracts anything but the ability to surveil the airspace.
I don’t know what TTS is either…